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sandwich adaptor question #605456
06/05/04 01:30 AM
06/05/04 01:30 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 378
Phoenix Arizona
1977c10phxdriver Offline OP
1977c10phxdriver  Offline OP
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 378
Phoenix Arizona
I've been reading the post about the Frantz canister comming off on Sifan's car. Maybe I don't understand the "sandwich adaptor". Does it take the place of the oil filter? and give you a way to re-locate the spin on oil filter somewhere else? Or does it just give you a port for hooking up another line and keep the original filter screwed to it?

If it takes the place of the original filter and Sifan is trying to delete his/her spin on filter, the engine will be trying to push the entire load of oil through the Frantz? Or am I missing something here?

Mark

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605457
06/05/04 01:42 AM
06/05/04 01:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,871
.
rugerman1 Offline
rugerman1  Offline
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,871
.
Here are the Frantz adapters
 -
You still use a spin-on filter with these adapters.
This is the current clamp
 -
This design will not "pop-off"

Mark

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605458
06/05/04 02:31 AM
06/05/04 02:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
Gary Allan Offline
Gary Allan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
After seeing the above response...I HOPE that the Frantz doesn't fall into my below description of MY permacool sandwich and sifan's.

A sandwich adapter is just that ...it is "sandwiched" between the engine block and the filter. It is primarily disigned for the addition of an oil cooler. It has a sprung bypass feature that is designed to bypass the cooler if it is clogged or oil pressure it too high until the oil if warm. This feature (the internal bypass) is used to provide the MAIN oil feed to the engine. The routing (ports) that would normally go to and from the cooler, are used to feed the bypass filter. The return port is typically plugged shut and the bypass returned to the engine at another location ..although I don't see why it wouldn't work in parallel with the full flow. The difference in flow can't be at all substantial through the bypass filter.

The other type of "mount" is a remote adapter. It allows relocation of the full flow filter. This is a screw on cover with ports to attach oil lines.

Personally I don't "conceptually" agree with the use of the sandwich adapter for this application. The 1/4" bypass feature is the ONLY feed for the engine. This just doesn't seem enough for me. I would think that too much of your oil pressure would be disapated overcoming this orifice restriction. The bypass is designed to take the place of a slowly restricting 1/2" line (the cooler) which has over 4x the flow capability of the 1/4" opening.

I cannot argue with the apparent success of this use of the sandwich adapter, however.

[ June 05, 2004, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605459
06/05/04 02:56 AM
06/05/04 02:56 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,336
London, AR
Bio-T Offline
Bio-T  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,336
London, AR
Gary,

The Frantz adapters that are posted above by Rugerman, are used for Pressure only. They do not have any bypass valve in them. You cannot return to them, you have to return to the pan, hollow bolt or valve cover.

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605460
06/05/04 04:47 AM
06/05/04 04:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
Gary Allan Offline
Gary Allan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
So they basically just provide an outlet port? That is, they're easier, albeit surely more expensive, than tapping off the sending unit? No "restrictive" element to them??

This (the Frantz "spacers with ports")would make for a good installation. I don't see how those who use the Permacool setup get away with it due to the aforementioned restriction. They do however ..get away with it.

[ June 05, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605461
06/05/04 05:09 AM
06/05/04 05:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 751
Texas
RalphPWood Offline
RalphPWood  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 751
Texas
I have used the Frantz for over 40 years. I have never heard of a properly installed clamp coming loose. At one time you could pay extra and get an over center clamp with a lever on it. I don't care for the knob.
The way to test a Perma-Cool sandwich adapter is to plug both ports and install the adapter with the spin on filter installed. If the oil pressure is good install the hoses. One to the filter and one from the filter. If the pressure doesn't come up like you want drill a 7/32" hole in the adapter to help the relief valve. If the hole is drilled too large all the oil will go directly to the full flow filter and the submicronic bypass filter won't get enough oil pressure to work. To use a Perma-Cool sandwich adapter you will need a bypass filter that doesn't leak. I have used the Frantz 2 port sandwich adapter. The Perma-Cool is a better design. In short if your oil pressure is good and the bypass filter heats up the sandwich adapter is working. My Camry has no full flow filter. I drilled a remote filter adapter so that the oil that the Motor Guard couldn't handle had an other way to get to the engine. At one time Frantz had all of these adapters. I can make a Perma-Cool adapter do anything the Frantz adapters could do. If you are a mechanical type person it is a piece of cake. Almost all of the Motor Guard filters I sell use the Perma-Cool sandwich adapter. I'm not into punching oil pans. The filters will work better with the Perma-Cool adapters with both hoses going to the Motor Guaard. With the Perma-Cool adapter all of the oil must go thru the full flow filter to get to the engine. The adapters that don't have the relief valve such as the GM models have the relief valve in the filter mount. If there is any restriction the engine relief valve opens and bypasses both filters. It's not a problem if you underestand how things work. Drill the adapter and keep on truckin'. If you want a one port sandwich adapter drill several holes and plug one port. Save yourself a buck or two.

Ralph [Burnout]

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605462
06/06/04 03:00 AM
06/06/04 03:00 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 378
Phoenix Arizona
1977c10phxdriver Offline OP
1977c10phxdriver  Offline OP
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 378
Phoenix Arizona
Hmm, I guess I understand a little more. I don't understand how putting in a 2 port sandwich adaptor for an oil cooler will work though. Seems to me that the oil flow needs to be in series, so to speak, so as to get the full flow/pressure back to the engine. But I don't have an oil cooler so I guess I won't worry about it! LOL

Also, drilling out the bypass valve scares me too. Seems to me that messing with the full flow of oil is not a good thing. Kinda glad I used the Frantz. Pulled my source line from the front of the engine and returned to the pan. Very simple and no chance of killing the oil pressure/flow and toasting my new engine.

Guess if I looked at the perma-cool adaptor first hand I might understand it better.

Mark

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605463
06/06/04 06:31 AM
06/06/04 06:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
Gary Allan Offline
Gary Allan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
 -

The oil leaves the engine and is routed to one of those ports and goes to (typically) a cooler. It then returns via the other port and continues normally to the full flow filter. Basically it's a physical barrier (cast) diverting the flow. In that barrier is a srung ball check valve. It opens if the cooler gets clogged. In this application it basically runs the two filters in "parallel-series". The oil flow out of the block is divided between the resistance of the bypass filter and the resistance of the small ball check. These two flows ..rejoin and both go through the full flow filter.

I personally think that the 1/4" hole is too small ..but as Ralph ..and many others have confirmed ..frequently this is not the case.

This installation is way cheaper and easier than the Frantz adapters. No tapping of the pan ..or the valve cover. Very simple.

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605464
06/06/04 06:40 AM
06/06/04 06:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,871
.
rugerman1 Offline
rugerman1  Offline
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,871
.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
The oil leaves the engine and is routed to one of those ports and goes to (typically) a cooler.

What do you think presents more of a resistance to flow,an oil cooler or a bypass filter?Why return a greatly reduced flow/pressure from a bypass filter to a pressure area?I'd rater return it to a low pressure area like a valve cover or an oil pan.IMHO.

Mark

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605465
06/06/04 09:34 AM
06/06/04 09:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
Gary Allan Offline
Gary Allan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 39,806
Pottstown, PA
I would normally agree. But in this case you don't need to. The resistance to "not" go to the bypass is sufficient to allow enough of a pressure drop to compell enough flow. There will be flow regardless ..the amount is the only question.


Let me try and say this correctly. Both the restrictive orifice and the bypass represent decent, albeit different restrictions. EACH will cause a pressure drop across them (the exact same pressure drop - only the amount of flow will vary)..EACH will have to see a flow ..directly proportional to their respective resistances as "seen" by the oil flow from the engine.

Your Frantz adapter, if I visually perceive it correctly, has but a 1/4 (or perhaps 1/8") port to dispense whatever static pressure the full flow normally sees. It will flow whatever static (as in steady pressure) flow is available at that pressure -seeing that resistance. The Permacool, on the other hand, has is a little more dynamic in the process. The whole amount of the oil flow (assuming that the pressure relief in the oil pump is NOT reached) MUST flow along these two paths ..divided comensurate with their respective resistance that they present to the oil flow.

If the pressure relief of the oil pump is not reached ...NO oil flow is taken from the engine. If you saw 40 lb before the installation ..and see 40 lb after the installation ..you are filtering and using the full oil flow of the oil pump (probably assuming that your engine gets it's oil pressure reading where most do - post filter).

So ..although I see the simplicity of the Frantz ..I can also see, if properly suited for the installation (volume of oil pump, etc.), where the Permacool would be more convenient and in some marginal way superior.

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605466
06/08/04 05:54 AM
06/08/04 05:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 751
Texas
RalphPWood Offline
RalphPWood  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 751
Texas
On a 12 valve Cummins at work I drilled the adapter 7/32". I took the center piece of a universal Perma-Cool adapter to a machine shop and had them make a center piece with Cummins threads. The pressure came right up. The full flow filter heated up first then the Motor Guard started heating up. I drilled a sandwich adapter 1/4" on my Subaru Legacy. It worked by it took a long time to heat up. In cold weather all of the oil would have gone to the full flow filter. It is very rare that the adapter would need to be drilled but 7/32" is not going to be too large. On my lawn mower I don't drill the adapters. The small engines don't need a drilled adapter. The Subaru doesn't need to be drilled. I plugged the hole. You can get a huge amount of oil thru the relief valve.
Several years ago I put a filter on a 20 HP Kohleer. The engine had no pressure gauge. All I had was a 2 port Frantz adapter. From one port I ran a line to the oil filter. I returned the oil to the drain plug in the bottom of the engine. I used the other port for an oil pressure gauge. On another Kohler I installed a Perma-Cool 181 Ford adapter. I hooked up both oil lines to the Motor Guard. The adapter will take the stock full flow filter or a less expensive little Toyota, etc. filter.
As you guys know the Motor Guard is my favorite design. I put a Frantz and a Frantz 1750 adapter on a Toyota Corolla about 20 years ago. When it was sold several years ago it had over 500 Thousand miles on it. The Motor Guard has the best design for servicing but the element is the important thing.
In this business you are going to get complaints. I got a call from an old customer that was getting a low reading on his gauge on a marine diesel engine. It was hooked up in the conventional way, with a tee at the oil pressure gauge. The problem was the filter was robbing oil off the gauge. The solution was to install a Perma-Cool adapter. The Frantz adapter would have also solved the problem by pulling the oil off the main oil supply. A guy in California ordered two M-30s for his Chevy diesel suburban. He used the universal adapter. He also ordered a Motor Guard for his transmission. He seemed to know what he wanted with no help from me. Then I started getting orders for Motor Guards for marine engines to be used with the Perma-Cool adapters. It turned out he was a marine diesel mechanic that was telling people about the filters.

Ralph [Burnout]

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605467
06/15/04 08:37 AM
06/15/04 08:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,387
Washington St.
Ken2 Offline
Ken2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,387
Washington St.
quote:
Originally posted by rugerman1:
What do you think presents more of a resistance to flow,an oil cooler or a bypass filter?Why return a greatly reduced flow/pressure from a bypass filter to a pressure area?I'd rater return it to a low pressure area like a valve cover or an oil pan.IMHO.

Mark

A bypass cooler is very high flow resistance and an oil cooler is very low flow resistance.

The adapter's internal bypass valve, or the 7/32" drilled orifice, provides a pressure drop which forces a small amount of oil through the bypass filter before it goes through the full-flow filter. As Ralph says, a 1/4" orifice doesn't restrict the flow sufficiently through the full-flow filter to push enough oil through the bypass filter. This is the somewhat the same principle as the Amsoil dual bypass/full-flow base--provide a restriction in the full-flow filter path to force oil through the bypass filter.


Ken

Re: sandwich adaptor question #605468
08/07/04 09:36 AM
08/07/04 09:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 698
MA
Santo Fontana Offline
Santo Fontana  Offline
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 698
MA
Help me out here, these permacool adapters have specific in and out ports, correct?

Re: sandwich adaptor question [Re: RalphPWood] #3871634
10/01/15 10:23 AM
10/01/15 10:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 45
Kansas
jacobs Offline
jacobs  Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 45
Kansas
Originally Posted By: RalphPWood
On a 12 valve Cummins at work I drilled the adapter 7/32". I took the center piece of a universal Perma-Cool adapter to a machine shop and had them make a center piece with Cummins threads. The pressure came right up. The full flow filter heated up first then the Motor Guard started heating up. I drilled a sandwich adapter 1/4" on my Subaru Legacy. It worked by it took a long time to heat up. In cold weather all of the oil would have gone to the full flow filter. It is very rare that the adapter would need to be drilled but 7/32" is not going to be too large. On my lawn mower I don't drill the adapters. The small engines don't need a drilled adapter. The Subaru doesn't need to be drilled. I plugged the hole. You can get a huge amount of oil thru the relief valve.
Several years ago I put a filter on a 20 HP Kohleer. The engine had no pressure gauge. All I had was a 2 port Frantz adapter. From one port I ran a line to the oil filter. I returned the oil to the drain plug in the bottom of the engine. I used the other port for an oil pressure gauge. On another Kohler I installed a Perma-Cool 181 Ford adapter. I hooked up both oil lines to the Motor Guard. The adapter will take the stock full flow filter or a less expensive little Toyota, etc. filter.
As you guys know the Motor Guard is my favorite design. I put a Frantz and a Frantz 1750 adapter on a Toyota Corolla about 20 years ago. When it was sold several years ago it had over 500 Thousand miles on it. The Motor Guard has the best design for servicing but the element is the important thing.
In this business you are going to get complaints. I got a call from an old customer that was getting a low reading on his gauge on a marine diesel engine. It was hooked up in the conventional way, with a tee at the oil pressure gauge. The problem was the filter was robbing oil off the gauge. The solution was to install a Perma-Cool adapter. The Frantz adapter would have also solved the problem by pulling the oil off the main oil supply. A guy in California ordered two M-30s for his Chevy diesel suburban. He used the universal adapter. He also ordered a Motor Guard for his transmission. He seemed to know what he wanted with no help from me. Then I started getting orders for Motor Guards for marine engines to be used with the Perma-Cool adapters. It turned out he was a marine diesel mechanic that was telling people about the filters.

Ralph <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />


I know this is an old thread but it does warrant a response.

I installed a sandwich adapter on my 2.5 Subaru along with a Frantz oil filter. All went well for 2 years until I lost ALL the bearings in the engine. Upon disassembly I found 4 of the 5 screws on the back of the oil pump loose. The sandwich adapter restricts oil flow and if there are any internal leaks, oil will be lost with a resulting loss of oil pressure. On cars with an oil pressure gauge, the driver would notice the loss of pressure but with an idiot light, you'll never know until it's too late.

BTW, the loose screws on oil pumps are a very common problem with Subaru 2.5 engines. I just wish I'd known about it before this happened.

Re: sandwich adaptor question [Re: 1977c10phxdriver] #3907440
11/04/15 09:43 PM
11/04/15 09:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 300
TX
handyman Offline
handyman  Offline
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 300
TX
So you are saying that you think the sandwich adapter did it. It sounds like this would have happened anyways.


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