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Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: ZeeOSix] #5285367 12/04/19 08:31 PM
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Just theory... As I clearly said...

But I believe it is a chance to explain the phenomenon...

And no... I don't have 10s of thousands of dollars for your tests. . Not happening... Go try doing that yourself... And I don't think you have that kind of money either.... Nothing wrong with that... Neither one of us has hit that mega millions lottery yet. .

And you can't prove it's not additives, organic compounds, inorganic compounds, or species made from the oil in use, or base oils, or what in it's totality makes the difference... And that the metallurgy used is not a factor... it could well be a factor... In combination with minor differences in what has been said earlier.



But it is obvious something can change that circumstance... Just like with the hemi motors... Therefore leading to either that noise not being present or disappearing with use....



Remember.... You talk about adding a additive... Ceratec...

Which is exactly what I am talking about above.... Something element wise or organic compound wise may well greatly assist in how well the oil actually works much more synergistically with the parts and metallurgy in those motors...

That Ceratec really helps is very interesting to note... I think we are not on totally different pages on this zee...








Last edited by bbhero; 12/04/19 08:59 PM.

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Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: bbhero] #5285384 12/04/19 09:07 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Just theory... As I clearly said...

But I believe it is a chance to explain the phenomenon...

And no... I don't have 10s of thousands of dollars for your tests. . Not happening... Go try doing that yourself... And I don't think you have that kind of money either.... Nothing wrong with that... Neither one of us has hit that mega millions lottery yet. .

And you can't prove it's not additives, organic compounds, inorganic compounds, or species made from the oil in use, or base oils, or what in it's totality makes the difference... And that the metallurgy used is not a factor... it could well be a factor... In combination with minor differences in what has been said earlier.

But it is obvious something can change that circumstance... Just like with the hemi motors... Therefore leading to either that noise not being present or disappearing with use....

Remember.... You talk about adding a additive... Ceratec...

Which is exactly what I am talking about above.... Something element wise or organic compound wise may well greatly assist in how well the oil actually works much more synergistically with the parts and metallurgy in those motors...


Sure, additives can make a big difference. But you're not focusing on the main reason I went down that rabbit hole ... namely, the theory of the AW/AF layer stripping with an oil change.

It's pretty clear to me that in the case of the Coyote, when doing an oil change (with same exact brand/viscosity with same oil filter) it changes the friction level to less than it was before the oil change. That goes along with the AW/AF layer getting reduced/stripped off to some degree due to the new oil. Most people would think new oil is "slicker" than old oil, but it's been shown in papers not to be the case.

And after participating in the Coyote ticking discussions for nearly 5 years, there has been no oil alone reported that completely cures the ticking - different oils may reduce the ticking some, but never seems to completely eliminate it. Ceratec and Motorcraft XL-17 (no longer sold by Ford) are the two main additives that cured the ticking. In fact, back in the 2011-2013 time frame, the Ford field engineers would recommend the XL-17 as a cure for the ticking. So in the case of the Coyote, the ticking is solidly correlated with the friction level between moving parts. As far as the Hemi engines ... who knows, and I've not looked into it. Probably a whole different root cause.

Motorcraft XL-17

[Linked Image]

This is basically what the BBQ tick (Ford calls it the "typewriter tick") sounds like, and it does emanate from the bottom end. The Coyote uses full floating rods.




Last edited by ZeeOSix; 12/04/19 09:24 PM. Reason: Added Video
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: ZeeOSix] #5285390 12/04/19 09:17 PM
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bbhero Offline
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I don't believe oil strips anything... There is just a bit too much consistency between oils in terms of zinc and phos especially...

I don't believe new oil creates more friction...

If anything with new friction modifiers.... It would modify the friction to be less not more being new... I would tend to think...

Though.. . Hey.. I could be wrong about that...

Friction modifier can either decrease or actually increase friction... Like in ATF... CVT fluid needs a friction modifier that actually increases friction for the belt to work properly.... Whereas other ATFs need the ATF to actually modify the friction to lower it...


Maybe this is what is going on here ^^^^^

Similar phenomenon like ATF fluid vs CVT fluid...

That does have a possibility in this circumstance.


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"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: bbhero] #5285391 12/04/19 09:20 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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^^^ Ceratec definitely decrease friction. They wouldn't advertise it as decreasing friction and giving engines more HP (proven on many dyno tests) if it didn't decrease friction. Also, guys using it in their Coyotes report that the engine runs noticeable smoother and they do see increases in fuel mileage.

Originally Posted by bbhero
If anything with new friction modifiers.... It would modify the friction to be less not more being new... I would tend to think...


Not if new oil strips some of the AW/AF layer off surfaces.

Did you see the video I added above? Possible source of the Coyote ticking ... rods walking side-to-side on the crank journal, possibly set-off by the friction level between the moving parts.

Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: RDY4WAR] #5285399 12/04/19 09:34 PM
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Sorry for the late response guys; got busy with other stuff.

I am more than willing to defend my statements on wear rates.

The SAE study I typically reference ... It has been called "flawed". I'm not sure I agree with that, but I'm more than open to hear the opinions of why it's viewed as flawed. I, too, often find issues with other SAE studies, so this one I like to reference is not immune to contradiction. All I ask is that please explain in detail why it's viewed as flawed.

The reason I like that study is that it gives a reasonably credible explanation as to why I see the same wear rate influence in macro data. I've got over 16k UOAs in my database. Guys - that's PLENTY of data to make some reasonable conclusions. And with no exception, every grouping shows that as the miles increase in an OCI the wear rates drop. That is from macro data across all manner of vehicles in all manner of environments, and uses, etc.

Honestly I don't know of any other study that has done what I've done. I'm not going to be so vain as to say I'm a genius, but has there been any other approach you've seen that's taken the entire market into consideration? Frankly, it's not rocket science; it's just good old basic statistical analysis; means stdevs and anovas.

The data from my study is clearly explained in the "normalcy" article here on BITOG. In fact, when it was published in the Noria journal, it was edited down. The BITOG version is a tad more in depth. My methodology and conclusions are there for all to see. If someone has specific questions about the data, please feel free to ask me; I don't mind being questioned about my work.

This is my claim; it is indisputably proven that wear rates drop as the OCI matures (limited to 15k miles where my data streams stop) in typical normal applications. Now, you can debate why that phenomenon exists; fine by me. But I'm going to staunchly defend my work and if you want to challenge it, then by all means grab 16,000 UOAs and show me your work; convince me I'm wrong. I point to the SAE Ford/Conoco study as a potential explanation as to the method of how the data manifests; if you think that flawed, then please explain why. If you read my article closely, I don't claim to state that the TCB theory is proven in my data; I only claim it is a reasonable explanation as to the potential contributor to the macro data conclusions. There is correlation between what the SAE study shows (wear rates drop as the OCI matures) and what my data shows (wear rates drop as the OCIs mature). I don't claim that the TCB is the causation; that claim is based in the SAE study. I only state that their conclusion is a possible explanation for the phenomenon I see. But regardless if you believe the SAE study to be flawed, it does not invalidate the macro data conclusions I draw.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: bbhero] #5285401 12/04/19 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bbhero
How about you not be ridiculous and question kschachn's intelligence?? Try that on for a change...
And him not being or bringing positive response?? Aka agree with you... He's actually has a different way of thinking of this.. With good reason and rationale why.


That's obviously not what I wrote. I said I know based on his other posts he is more intelligent than ignoring the rest of the post when he could likely add to the discussion (as he ended up doing smile ). I didn't want him to agree, I wanted to learn. He's obviously had some industry experience.


De omnibus dubitandum.
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: ZeeOSix] #5285406 12/04/19 09:41 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Ahh I think new oil though has much greater lubricity... Which would counteract any stripping of any AW/EP layer there... Not that that does not take place... The stripping happening could well be the circumstance. But the lubricity of new oil does counteract that.. to a large degree. Though it does make me think that the friction modifier may well be such that new oil may actually increase friction aka in a similar fashion like CVT oil... Though that does not necessarily mean a lot more wear... Then over a fairly short amount of miles the oils friction modifiers start to actually lessen any friction in combination with new AW/EP species form from heat exposure and use.

I think the Ceratec phenomenon sort of verifies what my theory is...


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Cam2 full synthetic 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #5285412 12/04/19 09:44 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by bbhero
How about you not be ridiculous and question kschachn's intelligence?? Try that on for a change...
And him not being or bringing positive response?? Aka agree with you... He's actually has a different way of thinking of this.. With good reason and rationale why.


That's obviously not what I wrote. I said I know based on his other posts he is more intelligent than ignoring the rest of the post when he could likely add to the discussion (as he ended up doing smile ). I didn't want him to agree, I wanted to learn. He's obviously had some industry experience.



Ahh yeah... My fault...

Need reading lesson 101 LOL

Ordering that now LOL

Sorry man.. my fault there.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Cam2 full synthetic 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: bbhero] #5285424 12/04/19 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Ahh yeah... My fault...

Need reading lesson 101 LOL

Ordering that now LOL

Sorry man.. my fault there.


All good, sometimes I fly off the handle too and realize later I was stuck on stupid (the rest of the times my wife is quick to point it out). The important part is realizing it and making amends...
LOL


De omnibus dubitandum.
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #5285427 12/04/19 10:12 PM
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bbhero Offline
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Yeah man I understand that...

I know I am far from perfect... And I need to be real and honest enough to say where I am or was wrong..

That Reading 101 will be here soon enough LOL


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Cam2 full synthetic 5w30 Wix 57356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: bbhero] #5285436 12/04/19 10:26 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Ahh I think new oil though has much greater lubricity... Which would counteract any stripping of any AW/EP layer there... Not that that does not take place... The stripping happening could well be the circumstance. But the lubricity of new oil does counteract that.. to a large degree. Though it does make me think that the friction modifier may well be such that new oil may actually increase friction aka in a similar fashion like CVT oil... Though that does not necessarily mean a lot more wear... Then over a fairly short amount of miles the oils friction modifiers start to actually lessen any friction in combination with new AW/EP species form from heat exposure and use.

I think the Ceratec phenomenon sort of verifies what my theory is...


I don't think that would explain the tick instantly disappearing (literally within a couple minutes) after adding 2~3% volume of Ceratec to the new oil, and the engine staying tick free for the duration of the oil change.

Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: ZeeOSix] #5285444 12/04/19 10:36 PM
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In the red part there... I was making that in reference to a regular oil with nothing else... Added...


And again... It is interesting that the Ceratec additive makes a difference... Is it friction modifier that actually lessens new oils friction ?? And what specifically?? Organic compounds?? Inorganic compounds ?? Elements in that additive ??

Has to be something... No doubt.

Just like my lady's Camry... Super S and Cam2 oil mixed together caused that car to run sound very loud... Drained that our and put in Federated Auto semi synthetic blend oil and Hy-perlube additive... Car ran loud for about 1/2 second... Then way, way, way quieter once that new oil and Hy-perlube got up in the motor... Was it the new oil and additive Hy-perlube additive that had just the right base oils, inorganic compounds or organic compounds or right elements or maybe a combination of all these factors that made such a difference in terms of sound if the car running ?? Hard to know without serious big money testing... But it was definitely very different.

And that car with a good oil that is quiet in the beginning.. it will get louder with miles and time.... And the exact same oil in new.... Quieter again...


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Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: RDY4WAR] #5285450 12/04/19 10:43 PM
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Well, this thread took a detour and made an unplanned stop at Disneyworld. I've enjoyed reading the discussion though.

I get that a particle larger than the clearance won't pass through. I'm thinking more of the areas that rely on splash lubrication. Say in an engine with roller lifters gets a piece of debris splashed up on the cam lobe and then the lifter's roller rolls over it while riding the lobe or it gets in the links of the timing chain.


"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1
Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: RDY4WAR] #5285498 12/05/19 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I get that a particle larger than the clearance won't pass through. I'm thinking more of the areas that rely on splash lubrication. Say in an engine with roller lifters gets a piece of debris splashed up on the cam lobe and then the lifter's roller rolls over it while riding the lobe or it gets in the links of the timing chain.


If you're worried about wear from particles in the oil, then:

1) Use a high efficiency oil filter.
2) Don't run the oil filter way past its rating.
3) Do regular (but not over extended) oil changes.
4) Use a high efficiency air filter.
5) Change the air filter on a regular basis.
6) Ensure the air filter fits well and seals 100% around the gasket.

Re: Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta [Re: bbhero] #5285509 12/05/19 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Just like my lady's Camry... Super S and Cam2 oil mixed together caused that car to run sound very loud... Drained that out and put in Federated Auto semi synthetic blend oil and Hy-perlube additive... Car ran loud for about 1/2 second... Then way, way, way quieter once that new oil and Hy-perlube got up in the motor... Was it the new oil and additive Hy-perlube additive that had just the right base oils, inorganic compounds or organic compounds or right elements or maybe a combination of all these factors that made such a difference in terms of sound if the car running ?? Hard to know without serious big money testing... But it was definitely very different.


Easy test. Run just the new oil change without the additive for a bit (5-10 miles), then add the Hy-perlube to see if it makes a noticable noise change in short order. Do it some place quiet (like in the garage) to get a good noise level listen before and after Hy-perlube.

If the engine is pretty quiet on just oil, then you probably won't hear a big change with the additive. But if the motor is relatively noisy on just oil, then the additive might show a noticable difference, like Ceratec does on a ticking Coyote, for example.

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