Filtration Efficiency vs Pressure Delta

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Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
^^^ Notice who wrote that Machinery Lubrication article.
Yes, I saw that later. One should also note that his article is really not about increased wear with new oil, that's only a topic he invokes during his discussion about oil analysis in general. And the idea of stripping the tribofilm layer is proposed as one mechanism for the higher iron counts, but he provides no real evidence that's what is happening. In fact he doesn't even make that statement, what he does say is: "Studies have shown that elevated wear levels after an oil change can be directly linked to chemical reactions of fresh additive packages." So if you use the same oil as you did the last time then this should not happen?
"Chemical reaction" could be linked to anti-wear layer stripping ... who knows since there seems to be no real specific test evidence of that actually happening. I will say this, that the Ford Coyote 5.0L V8 engine used in the Mustang and F-150 trucks typically experience a ticking noise right after an oil change - even when the same exact oil has been used on the oil change. And typically the ticking will slowly go away as the oil gets more and more miles put on it. Then do another fresh oil change and bingo, the ticking shows back up again. But if an anti-friction/anti-wear additive (like Liqu-Moly Ceratec, ratio of only 150-300 ml in 8-10 qts of oil) is put in the engine the ticking almost instantly goes away. I've had long discussions about this phenomena on other chat boards, and the ticking seems to be directly related to the friction level of the oil. So in that case, it seems possible that the anti-wear layer on engine parts has somehow changed upon a fresh oil change (AW layer stripped by the new oil?), which changes the friction level enough between certain parts that causes the ticking to begin. Then add 150-300 ml Ceratec and the ticking instantly disappears. A very strange phenomena that's been going on since 2011 in the Coyote and nobody has 100% pinned it down to the actual cause.
 
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And I have noticed the exact opposite... My lady's Camry gets louder with time on the oil... Put new oil in.... And way quieter... My car has the same phenomenon as the Camry... Just not has pronounced.
 
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Originally Posted by bbhero
And I have noticed the exact opposite... My lady's Camry gets louder with time on the oil... Put new oil in.... And way quieter... My car has the same phenomenon as the Camry... Just not has pronounced.
Your cars don't have a 5.0L V8 Coyote. Like I said in my comment above, there are tons of Mustang and F-150 owners who have reported the ticking vs oil change phenomena. Ford even put out an SSM (special service message) out about it a while ago. It's something unique to that engine and seems to be directly related to the friction level between moving parts.
 
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Well no doubt I don't have the same motors... But it still is a opposite phenomenon non the less..... Which means.... Why is that ?? New oil in a VQ or 2.2 Toyota motor has a different finding.... And obviously a different set up too... I highly doubt that friction levels are the issue here... It is likely something else.... Aka with those motors and their set up and metallurgy...
 
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Well no doubt I don't have the same motors... But it still is a opposite phenomenon non the less..... Which means.... Why is that ?? New oil in a VQ or 2.2 Toyota motor has a different finding.... And obviously a different set up too...
The engines you're talking about may be sensitive to the oil shearing down to a lower viscosity over time. All engines are different, and many factors going on with oils over their use period. Even if there is AW layer stripping with a new oil change, those engines may not be sensitive to the change in friction level between parts.
 
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The Ford motors have obviously a different oil pump, oil system set up for galleries and flow... And likely different metallurgy has well. .. plus different oil filter... I'd bet there is something within those factors that causes that issue...
 
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I believe this Ford phenomenon is just like that hemi tick.... And I'd bet it is a metallurgy circumstance behind it..
 
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Originally Posted by bbhero
The Ford motors have obviously a different oil pump, oil system set up for galleries and flow... And likely different metallurgy has well. .. plus different oil filter... I'd bet there is something within those factors that causes that issue...
So if everything is exactly the same - oil brand & viscosity, oil filter, OCI duration - and the engine is not ticking right before the oil is change, but then ticks right after an oil change, then what's your theory on why it started ticking? And on top of that, when a small amount of anti-friction additive is put in the oil (ratio of only 150-300 mm in 8-10 quarts of oil, a 2-3% mix), and the ticking instantly goes away, how is that explained? Seem pretty clear to me the ticking is due to parts/clearances that are sensitive to the friction level of the oil. And not all Coyotes experience this phenomena. Some never tick, no matter what, which could stem back to manufacturing tolerance differences (that are sensitive to friction level) between mass produced engines.
 
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Nah... Don't think it is that... My theory... And that is all we (aka you and me really) have at this point.. is the following... Again my theory... I believe it is indeed the metallurgy is different in a Ford or even hemi motor... Such that a oil with say a certain friction modifier and AW and EP additives actually bond differently with that Ford or hemi motor... And even adding a small amount of a additive as you say OR even using a different motor oil all together yet with the "right" or correct additives actually work more synergistically with those Ford and hemi motors parts metallurgy.. . It is finding the best additives and how they actually bond with those internal Ford and hemi parts that cause that noise to go away... When one uses a oil with and I don't mean totally incorrect but yet maybe not the most ideal additives with those Ford and hemi motors. .. one gets that noise aka ticking.. . Until different species of compounds are formed in the oil has it is used that stops that noise.. Vs using a oil that is favorable and has a correct additive package that works from the get go in a synergistic way with the Ford and hemi motors metallurgy and thus no ticking at all...
 
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Nah... Don't think it is that... My theory... And that is all we (aka you and me really) have at this point.. is the following... Again my theory... I believe it is indeed the metallurgy is different in a Ford or even hemi motor... Such that a oil with say a certain friction modifier and AW and EP additives actually bond differently with that Ford or hemi motor... And even adding a small amount of a additive as you say OR even using a different motor oil all together yet with the "right" or correct additives actually work more synergistically with those Ford and hemi motors parts metallurgy.. . It is finding the best additives and how they actually bond with those internal Ford and hemi parts that cause that noise to go away... When one uses a oil with and I don't mean totally incorrect but yet maybe not the most ideal additives with those Ford and hemi motors. .. one gets that noise aka ticking.. . Until different species of compounds are formed in the oil has it is used that stops that noise.. Vs using a oil that is favorable and has a correct additive package that works from the get go in a synergistic way with the Ford and hemi motors metallurgy and thus no ticking at all...
Many Coyote owners have tried different oil brands and oil viscosity. Some have reported a slight difference in engine noise, but that could also be from reduced noise in the valve train, cam-chain system, etc. But most do not report the bottom end 'typewriter tick' disappearing unless a strong anti-friction additive (ie, Ceratec) is added to the oil. And then there are even some owners who try Ceratec and it doesn't help much - maybe stemming back to the level of parts clearance difference between engines. I don't think it's really related to "metallurgy". Where's the test data that shows the same oil doesn't work the same on parts of different metallurgy? I haven't seen any. If there was a distinct need for a certain oil formulation for a certain engine metallurgy, then I'd think certain oils would be specified to use in specific engines. Anyway, you'd have to read and participate in the Coyote ticking discussions for nearly the 5 years like I have to fully see what I'm talking about. I mentioned the Coyote ticking right after an oil change in this thread because if my theory that the ticking is sensitive to the friction level, and if new oil does strip some of the anti-wear/anti-friction layer from surfaces, then it seems to correlate well with the Coyote ticking showing up almost instantly after and oil change, and almost instantly going away when adding Ceratec.
 
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Just theory... As I clearly said... But I believe it is a chance to explain the phenomenon... And no... I don't have 10s of thousands of dollars for your tests. . Not happening... Go try doing that yourself... And I don't think you have that kind of money either.... Nothing wrong with that... Neither one of us has hit that mega millions lottery yet. . And you can't prove it's not additives, organic compounds, inorganic compounds, or species made from the oil in use, or base oils, or what in it's totality makes the difference... And that the metallurgy used is not a factor... it could well be a factor... In combination with minor differences in what has been said earlier. But it is obvious something can change that circumstance... Just like with the hemi motors... Therefore leading to either that noise not being present or disappearing with use.... Remember.... You talk about adding a additive... Ceratec... Which is exactly what I am talking about above.... Something element wise or organic compound wise may well greatly assist in how well the oil actually works much more synergistically with the parts and metallurgy in those motors... That Ceratec really helps is very interesting to note... I think we are not on totally different pages on this zee...
 
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Originally Posted by bbhero
Just theory... As I clearly said... But I believe it is a chance to explain the phenomenon... And no... I don't have 10s of thousands of dollars for your tests. . Not happening... Go try doing that yourself... And I don't think you have that kind of money either.... Nothing wrong with that... Neither one of us has hit that mega millions lottery yet. . And you can't prove it's not additives, organic compounds, inorganic compounds, or species made from the oil in use, or base oils, or what in it's totality makes the difference... And that the metallurgy used is not a factor... it could well be a factor... In combination with minor differences in what has been said earlier. But it is obvious something can change that circumstance... Just like with the hemi motors... Therefore leading to either that noise not being present or disappearing with use.... Remember.... You talk about adding a additive... Ceratec... Which is exactly what I am talking about above.... Something element wise or organic compound wise may well greatly assist in how well the oil actually works much more synergistically with the parts and metallurgy in those motors...
Sure, additives can make a big difference. But you're not focusing on the main reason I went down that rabbit hole ... namely, the theory of the AW/AF layer stripping with an oil change. It's pretty clear to me that in the case of the Coyote, when doing an oil change (with same exact brand/viscosity with same oil filter) it changes the friction level to less than it was before the oil change. That goes along with the AW/AF layer getting reduced/stripped off to some degree due to the new oil. Most people would think new oil is "slicker" than old oil, but it's been shown in papers not to be the case. And after participating in the Coyote ticking discussions for nearly 5 years, there has been no oil alone reported that completely cures the ticking - different oils may reduce the ticking some, but never seems to completely eliminate it. Ceratec and Motorcraft XL-17 (no longer sold by Ford) are the two main additives that cured the ticking. In fact, back in the 2011-2013 time frame, the Ford field engineers would recommend the XL-17 as a cure for the ticking. So in the case of the Coyote, the ticking is solidly correlated with the friction level between moving parts. As far as the Hemi engines ... who knows, and I've not looked into it. Probably a whole different root cause. Motorcraft XL-17 [Linked Image] This is basically what the BBQ tick (Ford calls it the "typewriter tick") sounds like, and it does emanate from the bottom end. The Coyote uses full floating rods.
 
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I don't believe oil strips anything... There is just a bit too much consistency between oils in terms of zinc and phos especially... I don't believe new oil creates more friction... If anything with new friction modifiers.... It would modify the friction to be less not more being new... I would tend to think... Though.. . Hey.. I could be wrong about that... Friction modifier can either decrease or actually increase friction... Like in ATF... CVT fluid needs a friction modifier that actually increases friction for the belt to work properly.... Whereas other ATFs need the ATF to actually modify the friction to lower it... Maybe this is what is going on here ^^^^^ Similar phenomenon like ATF fluid vs CVT fluid... That does have a possibility in this circumstance.
 
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^^^ Ceratec definitely decrease friction. They wouldn't advertise it as decreasing friction and giving engines more HP (proven on many dyno tests) if it didn't decrease friction. Also, guys using it in their Coyotes report that the engine runs noticeable smoother and they do see increases in fuel mileage.
Originally Posted by bbhero
If anything with new friction modifiers.... It would modify the friction to be less not more being new... I would tend to think...
Not if new oil strips some of the AW/AF layer off surfaces. Did you see the video I added above? Possible source of the Coyote ticking ... rods walking side-to-side on the crank journal, possibly set-off by the friction level between the moving parts.
 

dnewton3

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Sorry for the late response guys; got busy with other stuff. I am more than willing to defend my statements on wear rates. The SAE study I typically reference ... It has been called "flawed". I'm not sure I agree with that, but I'm more than open to hear the opinions of why it's viewed as flawed. I, too, often find issues with other SAE studies, so this one I like to reference is not immune to contradiction. All I ask is that please explain in detail why it's viewed as flawed. The reason I like that study is that it gives a reasonably credible explanation as to why I see the same wear rate influence in macro data. I've got over 16k UOAs in my database. Guys - that's PLENTY of data to make some reasonable conclusions. And with no exception, every grouping shows that as the miles increase in an OCI the wear rates drop. That is from macro data across all manner of vehicles in all manner of environments, and uses, etc. Honestly I don't know of any other study that has done what I've done. I'm not going to be so vain as to say I'm a genius, but has there been any other approach you've seen that's taken the entire market into consideration? Frankly, it's not rocket science; it's just good old basic statistical analysis; means stdevs and anovas. The data from my study is clearly explained in the "normalcy" article here on BITOG. In fact, when it was published in the Noria journal, it was edited down. The BITOG version is a tad more in depth. My methodology and conclusions are there for all to see. If someone has specific questions about the data, please feel free to ask me; I don't mind being questioned about my work. This is my claim; it is indisputably proven that wear rates drop as the OCI matures (limited to 15k miles where my data streams stop) in typical normal applications. Now, you can debate why that phenomenon exists; fine by me. But I'm going to staunchly defend my work and if you want to challenge it, then by all means grab 16,000 UOAs and show me your work; convince me I'm wrong. I point to the SAE Ford/Conoco study as a potential explanation as to the method of how the data manifests; if you think that flawed, then please explain why. If you read my article closely, I don't claim to state that the TCB theory is proven in my data; I only claim it is a reasonable explanation as to the potential contributor to the macro data conclusions. There is correlation between what the SAE study shows (wear rates drop as the OCI matures) and what my data shows (wear rates drop as the OCIs mature). I don't claim that the TCB is the causation; that claim is based in the SAE study. I only state that their conclusion is a possible explanation for the phenomenon I see. But regardless if you believe the SAE study to be flawed, it does not invalidate the macro data conclusions I draw.
 
Originally Posted by bbhero
How about you not be ridiculous and question kschachn's intelligence?? Try that on for a change... And him not being or bringing positive response?? Aka agree with you... He's actually has a different way of thinking of this.. With good reason and rationale why.
That's obviously not what I wrote. I said I know based on his other posts he is more intelligent than ignoring the rest of the post when he could likely add to the discussion (as he ended up doing smile ). I didn't want him to agree, I wanted to learn. He's obviously had some industry experience.
 
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Ahh I think new oil though has much greater lubricity... Which would counteract any stripping of any AW/EP layer there... Not that that does not take place... The stripping happening could well be the circumstance. But the lubricity of new oil does counteract that.. to a large degree. Though it does make me think that the friction modifier may well be such that new oil may actually increase friction aka in a similar fashion like CVT oil... Though that does not necessarily mean a lot more wear... Then over a fairly short amount of miles the oils friction modifiers start to actually lessen any friction in combination with new AW/EP species form from heat exposure and use. I think the Ceratec phenomenon sort of verifies what my theory is...
 
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by bbhero
How about you not be ridiculous and question kschachn's intelligence?? Try that on for a change... And him not being or bringing positive response?? Aka agree with you... He's actually has a different way of thinking of this.. With good reason and rationale why.
That's obviously not what I wrote. I said I know based on his other posts he is more intelligent than ignoring the rest of the post when he could likely add to the discussion (as he ended up doing smile ). I didn't want him to agree, I wanted to learn. He's obviously had some industry experience.
Ahh yeah... My fault... Need reading lesson 101 LOL Ordering that now LOL Sorry man.. my fault there.
 
Originally Posted by bbhero
Ahh yeah... My fault... Need reading lesson 101 LOL Ordering that now LOL Sorry man.. my fault there.
All good, sometimes I fly off the handle too and realize later I was stuck on stupid (the rest of the times my wife is quick to point it out). The important part is realizing it and making amends... LOL
 
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Yeah man I understand that... I know I am far from perfect... And I need to be real and honest enough to say where I am or was wrong.. That Reading 101 will be here soon enough LOL
 
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