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Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA #5242915 10/18/19 04:30 AM
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oakaro68 Offline OP
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Bitog friends,

Do we have any hard facts that deleting a diesel's emission components will actually prolong the life in any measurable amount?

I'm most interested in facts for the newer Duramax engines with scr, dpf and all that jazz but am curious about the 'in cylinder' regeneration models as well.

It seems that, from performing uoa on my factory L5P, that the wear numbers have been on point/low.

Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: oakaro68] #5242929 10/18/19 05:07 AM
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Linctex Offline
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From what I have seen on UOA's posted here, soot and particle counts go way down.

I can't comment on the decrease in wear metals or not.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: oakaro68] #5243009 10/18/19 06:42 AM
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BMWTurboDzl Offline
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I can't see how it would. Lubricant related failures aren't really on the radar when it comes to modern diesel engines.

Typical maintenance items are:
Injectors
Carbon build up within the EGR/Intake Tract
SCR (UREA) related issues (dosing, pump/heater issues).
NOx sensor failure.


“It took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

435i
Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: oakaro68] #5243096 10/18/19 07:57 AM
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Removing the emissions components and reprogramming the computer on my 2007 Dodge Ram made a huge difference in oil longevity. 2007 was when Cummins implemented the new EPA standards. Instead of using a urea system, the DPF was "regenerated" by having the fuel injector squirt a little fuel during the exhaust stroke which burned in the catalyst, making the exhaust extra hot to burn the accumulated soot out of the DPF. I believe the extra-rich exhaust caused a little fuel to slip past the piston rings and contaminate the oil over time. Look at the UOA data below; the first three UOAs were pre-deletion. After 4,000-8,000 miles the oil was as much as 5% fuel. Post-deletion, after driving 14,000 miles there was only a trace of fuel in the oil. Insolubles (soot) went down a little too.
[Linked Image]


2019 Toyota Avalon XLE - Genuine Toyota motor oil
2016 BMW 550i M Sport - Castrol Edge 0W-40
Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: oakaro68] #5243099 10/18/19 07:59 AM
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ARCOgraphite Online Content
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Originally Posted by oakaro68
Bitog friends,

Do we have any hard facts that deleting a diesel's emission components will actually prolong the life in any measurable amount?

I'm most interested in facts for the newer Duramax engines with scr, dpf and all that jazz but am curious about the 'in cylinder' regeneration models as well.

It seems that, from performing uoa on my factory L5P, that the wear numbers have been on point/low.


Are you considering violating Federal and State law on a public forum?

I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02 than all the VW diesel cars put together ever sold in this state. Then there are Hundreds of them.

I hated the double wall choking down pipe on my Powerstroke F350 W/T in the 90's, But I didn't mess with it.

I just sold the thing; too Noisy and smelly.

Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 10/18/19 07:59 AM.

2019 VW Jetta S 6MT OCI#1 5885mi-Castrol Edge Prof? VW508+VW Service Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#7 52665mi-Castrol GTX Magnatec 5W20 + SOA Filter
Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: ARCOgraphite] #5243113 10/18/19 08:13 AM
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Joel_MD Offline
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
[quote=oakaro68]I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02...

You mean CO? Any mods to a diesel wouldn't cause it to put out more CO2, unless it's by way of making more power/burning more fuel.

When I modified my Cummins the fuel economy increased from 13-14 MPG to 17-18 MPG. I'd argue that my CO2 emissions decreased as a result of burning less fuel.


2019 Toyota Avalon XLE - Genuine Toyota motor oil
2016 BMW 550i M Sport - Castrol Edge 0W-40
Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: oakaro68] #5243131 10/18/19 08:32 AM
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BrianF Offline
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Those early 6.7 engines had a terrible emissions system. The new SCR trucks run much better. On mine, I have only 2 samples thus far. First had just under 3% fuel and 0.58% soot. Second had no trace fuel and 0.57% soot. Both runs were 24,000km. Too early to tell on wear metals as the engine is still fresh.


2006 Trailblazer LT. QSUD, Fram Ultra.
2017 Ram 3500 SLT Megacab. Duron SHP 10w30, Baldwin BT7349.
1993 GMC 1500. QSAD, Fram PH5
Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: ARCOgraphite] #5243189 10/18/19 09:40 AM
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wdn Offline
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Are you considering violating Federal and State law on a public forum?



Asking a technical question about oil on a public forum whose reason for being is to talk about oil, is not advocating lawlessness.

Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: oakaro68] #5243249 10/18/19 10:47 AM
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userfriendly Offline
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Deleted LML UOA showed 6 ppm Fe after 9,500 miles using Duron SAE 40. The oil looked clean, none added and the truck got 25% better fuel economy.

Arrest me.

Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: Joel_MD] #5243257 10/18/19 10:54 AM
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A_Harman Offline
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Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
[quote=oakaro68]I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02...

You mean CO? Any mods to a diesel wouldn't cause it to put out more CO2, unless it's by way of making more power/burning more fuel.

When I modified my Cummins the fuel economy increased from 13-14 MPG to 17-18 MPG. I'd argue that my CO2 emissions decreased as a result of burning less fuel.


Absolute mathematical certainty that your CO2 emissions went down when your fuel economy improved.

Also, that's a great set of UOA's that show a great improvement in oil life after deleting the DPF.
Wear metals went down, the viscosity stayed in grade, TBN retention increased, and flashpoint improved.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: wdn] #5243312 10/18/19 11:35 AM
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oakaro68 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by wdn
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Are you considering violating Federal and State law on a public forum?



Asking a technical question about oil on a public forum whose reason for being is to talk about oil, is not advocating lawlessness.

thank you

Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: Joel_MD] #5243322 10/18/19 11:42 AM
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oakaro68 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Removing the emissions components and reprogramming the computer on my 2007 Dodge Ram made a huge difference in oil longevity. 2007 was when Cummins implemented the new EPA standards. Instead of using a urea system, the DPF was "regenerated" by having the fuel injector squirt a little fuel during the exhaust stroke which burned in the catalyst, making the exhaust extra hot to burn the accumulated soot out of the DPF. I believe the extra-rich exhaust caused a little fuel to slip past the piston rings and contaminate the oil over time. Look at the UOA data below; the first three UOAs were pre-deletion. After 4,000-8,000 miles the oil was as much as 5% fuel. Post-deletion, after driving 14,000 miles there was only a trace of fuel in the oil. Insolubles (soot) went down a little too.
[Linked Image]

yeah thanks for sharing this. deleting did make a very noticeable difference in your oil. i was never a fan of the injector firing during the exhaust stroke. i'm wondering if the newer ways gm is doing their regens (injector in the exhaust pipe) is better for your engine overall?

Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: A_Harman] #5243329 10/18/19 11:53 AM
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oakaro68 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by A_Harman
Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
[quote=oakaro68]I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02...

You mean CO? Any mods to a diesel wouldn't cause it to put out more CO2, unless it's by way of making more power/burning more fuel.

When I modified my Cummins the fuel economy increased from 13-14 MPG to 17-18 MPG. I'd argue that my CO2 emissions decreased as a result of burning less fuel.


Absolute mathematical certainty that your CO2 emissions went down when your fuel economy improved.

Also, that's a great set of UOA's that show a great improvement in oil life after deleting the DPF.
Wear metals went down, the viscosity stayed in grade, TBN retention increased, and flashpoint improved.

A_Harman can you help me understand / point out where the wear metals went down? It looks like Fe and Al stayed around the same but copper came down (usually copper is from the oil coolers).

Also, can we assume wear could be decreased from eliminating fuel dilution? Just trying to learn here, not challenging anyone's comments.

Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: oakaro68] #5243337 10/18/19 12:01 PM
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BeerCan Online Content
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I like clean air. That being said I don't rag on people who delete, it's a free country. I have a feeling if it gets to common the EPA is going to find a way to catch people but that's another discussion.

Personally the small changes people see in their UOA is not enough to convince me that the differences are going to make an appreciable change in the longevity of the engines. I don't thing fuel dilution up to 5% is an issue in the long run if you are using the correct oil and following reasonable UOA. Now I agree some of the older systems were not up to snuff and caused issues but the newer diesels seem to have everything worked out and run mostly trouble free. I have a lot of miles on the 6.7 Ford between the 2 trucks I've owned with the scr system and have had only minor issues. One of my trucks had a cracked dpf but it was covered under warranty as a manufacturer defect. My original 2011 F350 is close to 200k now with the current owner and as far as I know it has had no problems related to the emissions system.


2017 Ford F250 6.7 PS
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2016 Porsche 981 GTS
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Re: Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA [Re: BeerCan] #5243342 10/18/19 12:05 PM
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oakaro68 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BeerCan
I like clean air. That being said I don't rag on people who delete, it's a free country. I have a feeling if it gets to common the EPA is going to find a way to catch people but that's another discussion.

Personally the small changes people see in their UOA is not enough to convince me that the differences are going to make an appreciable change in the longevity of the engines. I don't thing fuel dilution up to 5% is an issue in the long run if you are using the correct oil and following reasonable UOA. Now I agree some of the older systems were not up to snuff and caused issues but the newer diesels seem to have everything worked out and run mostly trouble free. I have a lot of miles on the 6.7 Ford between the 2 trucks I've owned with the scr system and have had only minor issues. One of my trucks had a cracked dpf but it was covered under warranty as a manufacturer defect. My original 2011 F350 is close to 200k now with the current owner and as far as I know it has had no problems related to the emissions system.

That's what I was thinking because my factory 2018 Duramax seems to be on par with low wear rates of the previous generations of the Duramax. As long as no trouble arise from the emission system it doesn't really seem all that beneficial (from an engine wear standpoint) to delete unless you start extending your OCI past factory recommendations. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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