Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA

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Bitog friends, Do we have any hard facts that deleting a diesel's emission components will actually prolong the life in any measurable amount? I'm most interested in facts for the newer Duramax engines with scr, dpf and all that jazz but am curious about the 'in cylinder' regeneration models as well. It seems that, from performing uoa on my factory L5P, that the wear numbers have been on point/low.
 
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From what I have seen on UOA's posted here, soot and particle counts go way down. I can't comment on the decrease in wear metals or not.
 
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Atlanta,GA
I can't see how it would. Lubricant related failures aren't really on the radar when it comes to modern diesel engines. Typical maintenance items are: Injectors Carbon build up within the EGR/Intake Tract SCR (UREA) related issues (dosing, pump/heater issues). NOx sensor failure.
 
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Removing the emissions components and reprogramming the computer on my 2007 Dodge Ram made a huge difference in oil longevity. 2007 was when Cummins implemented the new EPA standards. Instead of using a urea system, the DPF was "regenerated" by having the fuel injector squirt a little fuel during the exhaust stroke which burned in the catalyst, making the exhaust extra hot to burn the accumulated soot out of the DPF. I believe the extra-rich exhaust caused a little fuel to slip past the piston rings and contaminate the oil over time. Look at the UOA data below; the first three UOAs were pre-deletion. After 4,000-8,000 miles the oil was as much as 5% fuel. Post-deletion, after driving 14,000 miles there was only a trace of fuel in the oil. Insolubles (soot) went down a little too. [Linked Image]
 
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Originally Posted by oakaro68
Bitog friends, Do we have any hard facts that deleting a diesel's emission components will actually prolong the life in any measurable amount? I'm most interested in facts for the newer Duramax engines with scr, dpf and all that jazz but am curious about the 'in cylinder' regeneration models as well. It seems that, from performing uoa on my factory L5P, that the wear numbers have been on point/low.
Are you considering violating Federal and State law on a public forum? I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02 than all the VW diesel cars put together ever sold in this state. Then there are Hundreds of them. I hated the double wall choking down pipe on my Powerstroke F350 W/T in the 90's, But I didn't mess with it. I just sold the thing; too Noisy and smelly.
 
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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
[quote=oakaro68]I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02...
You mean CO? Any mods to a diesel wouldn't cause it to put out more CO2, unless it's by way of making more power/burning more fuel. When I modified my Cummins the fuel economy increased from 13-14 MPG to 17-18 MPG. I'd argue that my CO2 emissions decreased as a result of burning less fuel.[/quote]
 
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Those early 6.7 engines had a terrible emissions system. The new SCR trucks run much better. On mine, I have only 2 samples thus far. First had just under 3% fuel and 0.58% soot. Second had no trace fuel and 0.57% soot. Both runs were 24,000km. Too early to tell on wear metals as the engine is still fresh.
 

wdn

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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Are you considering violating Federal and State law on a public forum?
Asking a technical question about oil on a public forum whose reason for being is to talk about oil, is not advocating lawlessness.
 
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Deleted LML UOA showed 6 ppm Fe after 9,500 miles using Duron SAE 40. The oil looked clean, none added and the truck got 25% better fuel economy. Arrest me.
 
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Michigan
Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
[quote=oakaro68]I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02...
You mean CO? Any mods to a diesel wouldn't cause it to put out more CO2, unless it's by way of making more power/burning more fuel. When I modified my Cummins the fuel economy increased from 13-14 MPG to 17-18 MPG. I'd argue that my CO2 emissions decreased as a result of burning less fuel.
Absolute mathematical certainty that your CO2 emissions went down when your fuel economy improved. Also, that's a great set of UOA's that show a great improvement in oil life after deleting the DPF. Wear metals went down, the viscosity stayed in grade, TBN retention increased, and flashpoint improved.[/quote]
 
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Originally Posted by wdn
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Are you considering violating Federal and State law on a public forum?
Asking a technical question about oil on a public forum whose reason for being is to talk about oil, is not advocating lawlessness.
thank you
 
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Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Removing the emissions components and reprogramming the computer on my 2007 Dodge Ram made a huge difference in oil longevity. 2007 was when Cummins implemented the new EPA standards. Instead of using a urea system, the DPF was "regenerated" by having the fuel injector squirt a little fuel during the exhaust stroke which burned in the catalyst, making the exhaust extra hot to burn the accumulated soot out of the DPF. I believe the extra-rich exhaust caused a little fuel to slip past the piston rings and contaminate the oil over time. Look at the UOA data below; the first three UOAs were pre-deletion. After 4,000-8,000 miles the oil was as much as 5% fuel. Post-deletion, after driving 14,000 miles there was only a trace of fuel in the oil. Insolubles (soot) went down a little too. [Linked Image]
yeah thanks for sharing this. deleting did make a very noticeable difference in your oil. i was never a fan of the injector firing during the exhaust stroke. i'm wondering if the newer ways gm is doing their regens (injector in the exhaust pipe) is better for your engine overall?
 
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Originally Posted by A_Harman
Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
[quote=oakaro68]I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02...
You mean CO? Any mods to a diesel wouldn't cause it to put out more CO2, unless it's by way of making more power/burning more fuel. When I modified my Cummins the fuel economy increased from 13-14 MPG to 17-18 MPG. I'd argue that my CO2 emissions decreased as a result of burning less fuel.
Absolute mathematical certainty that your CO2 emissions went down when your fuel economy improved. Also, that's a great set of UOA's that show a great improvement in oil life after deleting the DPF. Wear metals went down, the viscosity stayed in grade, TBN retention increased, and flashpoint improved.
A_Harman can you help me understand / point out where the wear metals went down? It looks like Fe and Al stayed around the same but copper came down (usually copper is from the oil coolers). Also, can we assume wear could be decreased from eliminating fuel dilution? Just trying to learn here, not challenging anyone's comments.[/quote]
 
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I like clean air. That being said I don't rag on people who delete, it's a free country. I have a feeling if it gets to common the EPA is going to find a way to catch people but that's another discussion. Personally the small changes people see in their UOA is not enough to convince me that the differences are going to make an appreciable change in the longevity of the engines. I don't thing fuel dilution up to 5% is an issue in the long run if you are using the correct oil and following reasonable UOA. Now I agree some of the older systems were not up to snuff and caused issues but the newer diesels seem to have everything worked out and run mostly trouble free. I have a lot of miles on the 6.7 Ford between the 2 trucks I've owned with the scr system and have had only minor issues. One of my trucks had a cracked dpf but it was covered under warranty as a manufacturer defect. My original 2011 F350 is close to 200k now with the current owner and as far as I know it has had no problems related to the emissions system.
 
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Originally Posted by BeerCan
I like clean air. That being said I don't rag on people who delete, it's a free country. I have a feeling if it gets to common the EPA is going to find a way to catch people but that's another discussion. Personally the small changes people see in their UOA is not enough to convince me that the differences are going to make an appreciable change in the longevity of the engines. I don't thing fuel dilution up to 5% is an issue in the long run if you are using the correct oil and following reasonable UOA. Now I agree some of the older systems were not up to snuff and caused issues but the newer diesels seem to have everything worked out and run mostly trouble free. I have a lot of miles on the 6.7 Ford between the 2 trucks I've owned with the scr system and have had only minor issues. One of my trucks had a cracked dpf but it was covered under warranty as a manufacturer defect. My original 2011 F350 is close to 200k now with the current owner and as far as I know it has had no problems related to the emissions system.
That's what I was thinking because my factory 2018 Duramax seems to be on par with low wear rates of the previous generations of the Duramax. As long as no trouble arise from the emission system it doesn't really seem all that beneficial (from an engine wear standpoint) to delete unless you start extending your OCI past factory recommendations. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Originally Posted by oakaro68
Originally Posted by A_Harman
Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
[quote=oakaro68]I'm guessing that one modded diesel truck in my town makes more Nox and C02...
You mean CO? Any mods to a diesel wouldn't cause it to put out more CO2, unless it's by way of making more power/burning more fuel. When I modified my Cummins the fuel economy increased from 13-14 MPG to 17-18 MPG. I'd argue that my CO2 emissions decreased as a result of burning less fuel.
Absolute mathematical certainty that your CO2 emissions went down when your fuel economy improved. Also, that's a great set of UOA's that show a great improvement in oil life after deleting the DPF. Wear metals went down, the viscosity stayed in grade, TBN retention increased, and flashpoint improved.
A_Harman can you help me understand / point out where the wear metals went down? It looks like Fe and Al stayed around the same but copper came down (usually copper is from the oil coolers). Also, can we assume wear could be decreased from eliminating fuel dilution? Just trying to learn here, not challenging anyone's comments.
I was looking at the Iron numbers, and dividing them by the oil change miles. For the first three, the numbers were 43 ppm / 4.83 kmiles, 35 ppm / 4.62 kmiles, and 62 ppm / 8.05 kmiles. This gives wear rates of 8.9, 7.6, and 7.7 ppm/kmile, and an overall wear rate of 8.1 ppm/kmile before the emissions controls were deleted. For the next three, the numbers were 43 ppm / 8.57 kmiles, 25 ppm / 10.63 kmiles, and 32 ppm / 14.74 kmile. This gives wear rates of 5.0, 2.4, and 2.2 ppm/kmile, and an overall wear rate of 3.2 ppm/kmile after the deletion. So the overall average Iron wear rate decreased by ~60% from pre to post-deletion. And the last two readings have improved significantly over the first post-deletion UOA. This may indicate the engine is breaking in, and Iron wear will decrease more gradually. Another factor that may be contributing to the decrease in Iron wear post- vs pre-deletion is the Phosphorous content of the oil the 3 pre-deletion numbers were 743, 904, and 816 ppm, and the 3 post-deletion numbers were 1013, 1095, and 1230 ppm. These numbers indicate a significant increase in ZDDP, which could have been helping post-deletion.[/quote]
 
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Originally Posted by BeerCan
I like clean air. That being said I don't rag on people who delete, it's a free country. I have a feeling if it gets to common the EPA is going to find a way to catch people but that's another discussion.
Not free to violate Federal emissions laws. Its way too common in my town and surrounding area. Thank you for keeping your emissions equipment. But Now I see this flagrant disregard, if I'm in a "mood" I'm going to record and send tag numbers of violators I drive behind in my garbage VW Jetta to the Sheriffs office. Of course they will do nothing.
 
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It is really all a moot point at this stage, at least for those who have not deleted emissions on their vehicles. No reputable tuner is doing delete tuning anymore. Kory at PPEI was the last holdout and he stopped in mid September in a deal he reached with the EPA that kept him from getting taken out. PDI got smacked for 1.1 million in fines. Banks dropped delete tuning some time ago. Bully Dog also dropped off some time ago after they got taken to the wood shed by the EPA. No one is that can be depended on is going to further crack ECM codes to do this sort of thing. The EPA is on a mission with its National Compliance Initiative 2020. It has been reported that the EPA has even gotten its hand on invoices of customers that have purchased delete kits and tuning. Now, I don't think that means the EPA will start busting down doors, but it could affect being able to renew licenses on vehicles unless they can be shown to be in compliance. We will just have to watch and see how that plays out. But deletes are no longer a viable option, that is, unless one want to trust thousands of dollars of investment to Charlie's Shade Tree Tuning run out of his garage. That is a choice.
 
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The 2007 to 2009 model stuff that had EGR and a DPF were terrible for soot and fuel dilution. With SCR starting in the 2010 model year, NOx control moved out of the cylinder and into the exhaust system (SCR catalyst). That along with the "9th injector" made both issues go away basically as the amount of EGR went way down and the extr fuel dump for DPF regens was now outside the cylinder. The case for deleting anything after 2010 is pretty weak. If all you want is power, there are places now doing EPA approved, emissions legal, on road tuning (DuramaxTuner.com does for GM and Dodge stuff). I know they can get pretty big power out of LML Duramax's with solid reliability of the engine and E parts.
 
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