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Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: RDY4WAR] #5120523
05/30/19 05:37 PM
05/30/19 05:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,193
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,193
'Stralia
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Just because you're an engineer doesn't mean you're always right. An engineer designed the Mustang II after all.

If anything, it's more unsettling that an engineer is willing to push what is essentially psuedoscience.


Please don't lump us practicing engineers (mechanical with 30 years of bearing design, construction, turbine operation and maintenance, and lubrication) in with this...


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: RDY4WAR] #5120528
05/30/19 05:43 PM
05/30/19 05:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Just because you're an engineer doesn't mean you're always right. An engineer designed the Mustang II after all.

I agree but not necessarily for the Mustang II part.

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
If anything, it's more unsettling that an engineer is willing to push what is essentially psuedoscience.

So, with no degree, training, and experience in engineering and science, you claim to have a better engineering and scientific judgement.

Also, when you first joined this forum, I was the one to welcome you and answer your question about ZDDP in glory detail.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4853520/primary-vs-secondary-zddp


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: Shannow] #5120531
05/30/19 05:45 PM
05/30/19 05:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Just because you're an engineer doesn't mean you're always right. An engineer designed the Mustang II after all.

If anything, it's more unsettling that an engineer is willing to push what is essentially psuedoscience.

Please don't lump us practicing engineers (mechanical with 30 years of bearing design, construction, turbine operation and maintenance, and lubrication) in with this...

+1


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: Gokhan] #5120544
05/30/19 06:09 PM
05/30/19 06:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 609
Georgia
RDY4WAR Offline
RDY4WAR  Offline

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 609
Georgia
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Just because you're an engineer doesn't mean you're always right. An engineer designed the Mustang II after all.

I agree but not necessarily for the Mustang II part.

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
If anything, it's more unsettling that an engineer is willing to push what is essentially psuedoscience.

So, with no degree, training, and experience in engineering and science, you claim to have a better engineering and scientific judgement.

Also, when you first joined this forum, I was the one to welcome you and answer your question about ZDDP in glory detail.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4853520/primary-vs-secondary-zddp


At no point did I claim to have better engineering and scientific judgement. Where you got that, I have no idea. I don't have a degree. I build and race engines, and am mostly self-taught. I look to engineers, like yourself, to expand my knowledge. Which is why it's upsetting for someone like myself when pseudoscience gets presented as hard facts as it feels like I'm being taken for a fool. I may not be an engineer, but I know when information is incompatible with the scientific method.

Nikola Tesla said it best... "Today's Scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off though equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."



"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: RDY4WAR] #5120569
05/30/19 06:45 PM
05/30/19 06:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
At no point did I claim to have better engineering and scientific judgement. Where you got that, I have no idea. I don't have a degree. I build and race engines, and am mostly self-taught. I look to engineers, like yourself, to expand my knowledge.

It's fair enough, but when you call an honest scientific effort pseudoscience, it implies that. Pseudoscience refers to astrology, alchemy, alternative medicine, etc. If you do hold a degree and make similar statements, it implies that you either don't respect your colleagues because you lack maturity or simply are not capable of understanding their work and lack a deep understanding of science and engineering beyond a superficial knowledge from your training or more likely some combination of the two.

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Which is why it's upsetting for someone like myself when pseudoscience gets presented as hard facts as it feels like I'm being taken for a fool. I may not be an engineer, but I know when information is incompatible with the scientific method.

It is not pseudoscience. It's based on the ASTM D341 viscosity - temperature relationship (are you calling that pseudoscience?) and a simple empirical relationship between the VII content, viscosity, and shear. Don't forget that it's meant as an estimator and prone to certain errors.

I told you to send me the parameters of your boutique oils so that I can take a look but you never did. In your case, no VII is involved; so, the only error could result from ASTM D341 or the errors in your KV, HTHSV, and density values.[/quote]


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: JustN89] #5120572
05/30/19 06:49 PM
05/30/19 06:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,266
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,266
Fredericksburg, VA
I was and still am suggesting that online motor oil patent data be used to check how accurately the tool’s various predictions/outputs are. I would do it myself but I don’t want that to encroach on my too-little free time. Creating and using models has been my profession for well over a decade. The tool should undergo a process with the catch phrase name (that I dislike) called verification and validation (V&V). There is little to criticize until it is known how accurate its outputs are. Also, after seeing how it performs, the model could and should be tweaked to improve it. This is how it’s done in this line of work.

There are many valid ways to build models. Some of those ways can even result in models that can make predictions about things involving highly complex Newtonian physics (ex. maneuvering missile flight) or other complex laws without the model having explicit “knowledge” of said physics or laws. Those models typically gain their predictive capabilities by analyzing a lot of input data, then their internal variables get tuned such that the models’ outputs match the input data’s associated outputs as well as possible. One famous example of this is machine learning. On the much more primitive end, there is curve-fitting data to make predictions at other locations for which there is no input data. Enough rambling from me...

Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: JAG] #5120627
05/30/19 07:52 PM
05/30/19 07:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by JAG
I was and still am suggesting that online motor oil patent data be used to check how accurately the tool’s various predictions/outputs are. I would do it myself but I don’t want that to encroach on my too-little free time. Creating and using models has been my profession for well over a decade. The tool should undergo a process with the catch phrase name (that I dislike) called verification and validation (V&V). There is little to criticize until it is known how accurate its outputs are. Also, after seeing how it performs, the model could and should be tweaked to improve it. This is how it’s done in this line of work.

There are many valid ways to build models. Some of those ways can even result in models that can make predictions about things involving highly complex Newtonian physics (ex. maneuvering missile flight) or other complex laws without the model having explicit “knowledge” of said physics or laws. Those models typically gain their predictive capabilities by analyzing a lot of input data, then their internal variables get tuned such that the models’ outputs match the input data’s associated outputs as well as possible. One famous example of this is machine learning. On the much more primitive end, there is curve-fitting data to make predictions at other locations for which there is no input data. Enough rambling from me...

It sounds like you do some great interesting engineering work, JAG!


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: GaryPoe] #5120634
05/30/19 07:56 PM
05/30/19 07:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by GaryPoe
Keep the wheels turning. I like your content and frankly look forward to it @Gokhan oilburner

Thanks, GaryPoe!

Here is an application of the base-oil/HTHSV calculator to the Valvoline Advance Synthetic oils, which have unusually superior viscosity characteristics:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...vii-and-wear-its-complicated#Post5120623


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: Gokhan] #5120660
05/30/19 08:18 PM
05/30/19 08:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,266
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,266
Fredericksburg, VA
Originally Posted by Gokhan
It sounds like you do some great interesting engineering work, JAG!

Thank you. I do find it very interesting and will likely spend my whole career at the same place. I avoid mentioning identifying details of it online because of its nature. It’s awkward to always be vague about it but it’s best to keep it that way.

Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: Gokhan] #5120761
05/30/19 10:29 PM
05/30/19 10:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,837
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,837
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted by Gokhan
It's based on the ASTM D341 viscosity - temperature relationship (are you calling that pseudoscience?) and a simple empirical relationship between the VII content, viscosity, and shear. Don't forget that it's meant as an estimator and prone to certain errors.

The relationship has not yet been demonstrated in an empirical fashion. We're barely reaching out of the thought experiment juncture.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: JustN89] #5120788
05/30/19 11:12 PM
05/30/19 11:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 21,346
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 21,346
PNW
Engineers put a spacecraft in orbit around the moon, and men on the moon surface with slide rules, pencil drawings/blue prints with no actual test simulations in near zero gravity and no atmosphere to verify the LEM could actually land successfully on the moon surface. whistle Pretty amazing stuff done by Engineers with mathematical equations.

Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: JustN89] #5120796
05/30/19 11:20 PM
05/30/19 11:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,627
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,627
PA
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Engineers put men on the moon with slide rules, pencil drawings/blue prints and no actual test simulations in near zero gravity and no atmosphere to verify the LEM could actually land successfully on the moon surface. whistle Pretty amazing stuff done by Engineers with mathematical equations.

Shark: jumped.

Someone please lock this thread.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: d00df00d] #5120816
05/31/19 12:17 AM
05/31/19 12:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,456
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Engineers put men on the moon with slide rules, pencil drawings/blue prints and no actual test simulations in near zero gravity and no atmosphere to verify the LEM could actually land successfully on the moon surface. whistle Pretty amazing stuff done by Engineers with mathematical equations.

Shark: jumped.

Someone please lock this thread.

ZeeOSix is not a shark. He's a knowledgeable engineer, specialized in fluids and heat. He makes very good posts. What he said here is true.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: JustN89] #5120850
05/31/19 01:48 AM
05/31/19 01:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 966
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 966
WA
Why train drivers (British) are called Engineers in US? grin2 can you even find a calculator in the cab?

Re: Understanding Viscosity and HTHS [Re: JustN89] #5120865
05/31/19 02:54 AM
05/31/19 02:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,877
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline
userfriendly  Offline

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,877
BC, Canada
I don't need one.

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