ppp and pup HTHS

[Patman]

Originally Posted by Dupree
with all due respect, if no one notices a small spread on hths or it "doesn't matter" why are we even spending time on this forum? If the minute nuances about oil and learning more and trying to find the best whether its best performing for our specific parameters and things we want to accomplish, or to find the cheapest oil that will function to our standards... Then why are we even on here? Turn off the computer buy the cheapest oil on sale and go drink a beer. It matters to us because its a hobby maybe it doesn't matter significantly. But the fact is I still posted looking if someone had that spec whether a 2.9 or 3.2 will make a significant difference isn't the answer I seek.


Just because we can't notice a difference doesn't mean it's not making a difference though. For instance, let's say me running a 3.5 HTHS oil in my Corvette allows the engine to hit 400,000 miles before it needs rebuilding, but using a 3.0 HTHS oil causes it to need rebuilding at 300,000 miles. So even though I don't notice the difference in day to day operation, it is making a difference in the long run. It's just the same as how some oils might keep an engine cleaner for longer compared to others, you won't notice that by the seat of your pants, but many years later you'll notice it if you pull off a valve cover and look inside (and that cleaner engine will run better, get better MPG, make more power, burn less oil, etc.) So in other words, oil does matter.

 

[Dupree]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Dupree
with all due respect, if no one notices a small spread on hths or it "doesn't matter" why are we even spending time on this forum? If the minute nuances about oil and learning more and trying to find the best whether its best performing for our specific parameters and things we want to accomplish, or to find the cheapest oil that will function to our standards... Then why are we even on here? Turn off the computer buy the cheapest oil on sale and go drink a beer. It matters to us because its a hobby maybe it doesn't matter significantly. But the fact is I still posted looking if someone had that spec whether a 2.9 or 3.2 will make a significant difference isn't the answer I seek.


Just because we can't notice a difference doesn't mean it's not making a difference though. For instance, let's say me running a 3.5 HTHS oil in my Corvette allows the engine to hit 400,000 miles before it needs rebuilding, but using a 3.0 HTHS oil causes it to need rebuilding at 300,000 miles. So even though I don't notice the difference in day to day operation, it is making a difference in the long run. It's just the same as how some oils might keep an engine cleaner for longer compared to others, you won't notice that by the seat of your pants, but many years later you'll notice it if you pull off a valve cover and look inside (and that cleaner engine will run better, get better MPG, make more power, burn less oil, etc.) So in other words, oil does matter.


I agree 100% I am on the fence with what I am running in my VQ37 right now (pennzoil ultra platinum 10w30) it appears thin with some of the specs given yet HTHS would really be the true unimpeachable measure yet ask Pennzoil and crickets, was just hoping someone had actually got through to a chemical engineer at some point. That is my point if it doesn't matter lets stop bickering, But indeed it does make a difference sure our highly calibrated butts may not feel it but a change for the better is still none the less that.

 

[ka9mnx]

Originally Posted by Patman
Just because we can't notice a difference doesn't mean it's not making a difference though. For instance, let's say me running a 3.5 HTHS oil in my Corvette allows the engine to hit 400,000 miles before it needs rebuilding, but using a 3.0 HTHS oil causes it to need rebuilding at 300,000 miles. So even though I don't notice the difference in day to day operation, it is making a difference in the long run. It's just the same as how some oils might keep an engine cleaner for longer compared to others, you won't notice that by the seat of your pants, but many years later you'll notice it if you pull off a valve cover and look inside (and that cleaner engine will run better, get better MPG, make more power, burn less oil, etc.) So in other words, oil does matter.

Exactly...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....


Meh, It just means that's they're not going to lose sleep if a customer who represents .05 percent of the total customer base decides to walk over HTHS.

 

[JLTD]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I tried getting the HTHS and NOACK from them a few weeks ago. I was told that information is "proprietary", but he assured me that it "meets or exceeds industry standards."

They won't have my business as long as that's their stance. I hate the word "proprietary", and I hate blanket responses. It's a good way to send me out the door to the competition.


Agreed! If you can't give a number - and we know you have tested for it - then we will look elsewhere.

I had a prospective employer tell me one time that their 401(k) match was proprietary… suffice to say that I am not employed there.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I'd also enjoy those figures and think it is a bit ridiculous to not provide them, but as said above, few people even consider any aspects of n oil's properties and some that do are totally clueless. An older former wrench turner friend of mine who is still in that general business, claims 0w-40 pours like water and only fools would use such a thin oil.

When I brought up the fact that the 0w-40 I was using at that time, had a higher HTHS, 40c and 100C viscosity than 10w-30 , he had no freaking idea what HTHS was and the actual data sheets of the two oils caused the blue screen of death to happen inside his skull as what he always believed and spoke of as an authority came crashing down.

My most recent previous oil was PP 10w-30 and on an 4k mile cross country journey It required nearly a quart of make up oil, but the 4K miles accumulated there and on the drive back, seemed not to use a drop. Was buttery smooth and the quietest oil I had ever used in my LA318.

I replaced with PP10w-30HM which is just as smooth and quiet, perhaps more so.
So I'd love to have a VOA and UOA and HTHS figures, but my butt and ear Dyno are happy, and i am not going to give up this oil just for lack of the HTHS figure, even though I'd love to have it..

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Dupree
with all due respect, if no one notices a small spread on hths or it "doesn't matter" why are we even spending time on this forum? If the minute nuances about oil and learning more and trying to find the best whether its best performing for our specific parameters and things we want to accomplish, or to find the cheapest oil that will function to our standards... Then why are we even on here? Turn off the computer buy the cheapest oil on sale and go drink a beer. It matters to us because its a hobby maybe it doesn't matter significantly. But the fact is I still posted looking if someone had that spec whether a 2.9 or 3.2 will make a significant difference isn't the answer I seek.


Just because we can't notice a difference doesn't mean it's not making a difference though. For instance, let's say me running a 3.5 HTHS oil in my Corvette allows the engine to hit 400,000 miles before it needs rebuilding, but using a 3.0 HTHS oil causes it to need rebuilding at 300,000 miles. So even though I don't notice the difference in day to day operation, it is making a difference in the long run. It's just the same as how some oils might keep an engine cleaner for longer compared to others, you won't notice that by the seat of your pants, but many years later you'll notice it if you pull off a valve cover and look inside (and that cleaner engine will run better, get better MPG, make more power, burn less oil, etc.) So in other words, oil does matter.



Your mileage figures are purely speculative and there is nothing substantiating your claim if a higher HTHS leads to longer engine life.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by Dupree
with all due respect, if no one notices a small spread on hths or it "doesn't matter" why are we even spending time on this forum? If the minute nuances about oil and learning more and trying to find the best whether its best performing for our specific parameters and things we want to accomplish, or to find the cheapest oil that will function to our standards... Then why are we even on here? Turn off the computer buy the cheapest oil on sale and go drink a beer. It matters to us because its a hobby maybe it doesn't matter significantly. But the fact is I still posted looking if someone had that spec whether a 2.9 or 3.2 will make a significant difference isn't the answer I seek.


Just because we can't notice a difference doesn't mean it's not making a difference though. For instance, let's say me running a 3.5 HTHS oil in my Corvette allows the engine to hit 400,000 miles before it needs rebuilding, but using a 3.0 HTHS oil causes it to need rebuilding at 300,000 miles. So even though I don't notice the difference in day to day operation, it is making a difference in the long run. It's just the same as how some oils might keep an engine cleaner for longer compared to others, you won't notice that by the seat of your pants, but many years later you'll notice it if you pull off a valve cover and look inside (and that cleaner engine will run better, get better MPG, make more power, burn less oil, etc.) So in other words, oil does matter.



Your mileage figures are purely speculative and there is nothing substantiating your claim if a higher HTHS leads to longer engine life.


True, it is speculation on my part in this instance, but there have been a few posts on here showing tests with 3.5 HTHS oils showing lower engine wear in certain engines compared to thinner oils
( I believe Shannow posted those tests a few times on here) . Given the fact that I like to drive my Corvette hard from time to time, I think the thicker oil is a good choice, and even if it doesn't extend the life of the engine it certainly won't shorten it. So it's an educated gamble that will most likely pay off in the long run.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by burla
Especially with GtL since this is the biggest question about their formula, it is very disapointing they do not provide this imo.

I know what the value is. It's between 2.9 and 3.1 almost certainly, given that we're talking about ILSAC 30 grades. It's important for Red Line to show their values, since they are thick for grade and their HTHS is a selling point.

Originally Posted by Dupree
with all due respect, if no one notices a small spread on hths or it "doesn't matter" why are we even spending time on this forum?

I'm one of the first ones to wish that HTHS were on every data sheet. HTHS does matter. I've been complaining about that for a long time. However, one of the most important lessons I've learned on this forum is to get to know the specifications involved. A 30 grade ILSAC lube will have an HTHS that almost always falls within a very narrow band at the low end of the 30 grade minimums. You want a 5w-30 with enhanced HTHS, you grab something that's E6, C3, or A3/B4, depending upon what phosphorus, SA, and starting TBN you might be thinking of, not to mention the application, and what's available locally. For my 3.7, I'm running a lube with an HTHS of a minimum of 3.5, being that it's an E6 lubricant. It might be 3.6, but it won't be significantly higher than that, so I have a pretty good idea of what it is, whether or not the sheet says. The times you'll see more wiggle room for HTHS and far less certainty are some of the 40 grade HDEOs and 50 grades. Now, if you want to see data sheets you won't like, look at Castrol, where they very often simply list the minimum required for each specification.

Patman: Remember, with your oil spec, we do know the oil will have an elevated HTHS already in comparison to the ILSAC version, even without the sheet telling us anything.

 

[benjy]

whenever specs are hidden or just not there i tend them to be just ok but not as good as others, so they are not revealed + i don't buy that oil.

 

[BLND1]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I tried getting the HTHS and NOACK from them a few weeks ago. I was told that information is "proprietary", but he assured me that it "meets or exceeds industry standards."

They won't have my business as long as that's their stance. I hate the word "proprietary", and I hate blanket responses. It's a good way to send me out the door to the competition.

Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....



Well then don't read any of the Shell or Pennzoil Q&A's on here.

Lots of non-answers straight from the back label of the bottle. Might as well just call it the "we're just gonna pander to you and our die hard fans will support us anyway."

 

[RDY4WAR]

Originally Posted by BLND1
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I tried getting the HTHS and NOACK from them a few weeks ago. I was told that information is "proprietary", but he assured me that it "meets or exceeds industry standards."

They won't have my business as long as that's their stance. I hate the word "proprietary", and I hate blanket responses. It's a good way to send me out the door to the competition.

Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....



Well then don't read any of the Shell or Pennzoil Q&A's on here.

Lots of non-answers straight from the back label of the bottle. Might as well just call it the "we're just gonna pander to you and our die hard fans will support us anyway."


Those Q&As are insulting to me. If I was persuaded by marketing malarkey, I wouldn't be on BITOG.

 

[OnTheRocks]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I tried getting the HTHS and NOACK from them a few weeks ago. I was told that information is "proprietary", but he assured me that it "meets or exceeds industry standards."

They won't have my business as long as that's their stance. I hate the word "proprietary", and I hate blanket responses. It's a good way to send me out the door to the competition.

Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....



In todays world with all of the patent protection etc. the proprietary BS line is just part of a unethical marketing department.


It's the same response when I tried to get the formula for Coca Cola, and it's known variants. I wanted to know the difference between Old Coke, New Coke, and Coke Classic.

I still drink Coke.

Or when I asked the government about UFOs.

I haven't moved to Canada.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Originally Posted by OnTheRocks
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I tried getting the HTHS and NOACK from them a few weeks ago. I was told that information is "proprietary", but he assured me that it "meets or exceeds industry standards."

They won't have my business as long as that's their stance. I hate the word "proprietary", and I hate blanket responses. It's a good way to send me out the door to the competition.

Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....



In todays world with all of the patent protection etc. the proprietary BS line is just part of a unethical marketing department.


It's the same response when I tried to get the formula for Coca Cola, and it's known variants. I wanted to know the difference between Old Coke, New Coke, and Coke Classic.

I still drink Coke.

Or when I asked the government about UFOs.

I haven't moved to Canada.


No. It would be more like asking Coca-Cola how many calories are in a 12oz can of their product and them tell you it's proprietary.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....


Meh, It just means that's they're not going to lose sleep if a customer who represents .05 percent of the total customer base decides to walk over HTHS.

I think that number might be .005, 0005 or even less of their customer base. LOL

 

[BLND1]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Patman
I hate it when companies say that info is proprietary when some of their competitors post that info on their website. It makes me wonder if they are ashamed of the results they've gotten....


Meh, It just means that's they're not going to lose sleep if a customer who represents .05 percent of the total customer base decides to walk over HTHS.

I think that number might be .005, 0005 or even less of their customer base. LOL


It's the customers who "might walk" that often influence other purchasers the most - those types of things can snowball. Is it a significant amount? Maybe No. But fewer customers is fewer customers.

Look at the Quaker state and Fram haters that we still hear about. Most of those people only "heard they sucked" from a friend.

Viral marketing can be powerful. It's why many companies try to engage with it.

 

[4WD]

QS is good stuff … Fram TG and XG are also good … but whoever thinks you can't find a better price point filter than the orange can is not looking hard …

 

[BLND1]

Originally Posted by 4WD
QS is good stuff … Fram TG and XG are also good … but whoever thinks you can't find a better price point filter than the orange can is not looking hard …


Yes, I know they are good. Excellent even. I'm saying that despite that, we still hear I'll informed comments that date back years. Most of those are just people parroting a viral "orange can of death" or "sludge monster"moniker that they picked up - not because of any personal experience. That's why engaged consumers can have a big effect. It's generally a good idea to keep them happy.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by BLND1
It's the customers who "might walk" that often influence other purchasers the most - those types of things can snowball. Is it a significant amount? Maybe No. But fewer customers is fewer customers.

You can find a fair number of oils out there that do not publish HTHS, including varieties from Mobil and most definitely from Castrol. To think such a thing would somehow snowball on Shell when it's common practice in the industry (a practice I've already stated I really don't like) is a bit silly, particularly when 99.9% of the motoring public has zero idea about (or interest in) HTHS. At times they have been published. Generally speaking, I should think that the telephone support people do not need to be getting into arguments trying to vainly explain why one tier of 5w-30 ILSAC synthetic has HTHS of 3.0 and another has 3.1 and the caller on the line is convinced it's a serious difference or thinks it's some kind of conspiracy. Neither the caller nor the person answering the call are equipped to handle the conversation, which does absolutely nothing to benefit the customer or the oil company.

ILSAC lubes of one grade and set of specs are far more similar than they are different. You see an ILSAC 5w-30, expect it to have HTHS of 3.0 and you'll almost certainly be correct. Expect it to leapfrog CCS numbers by a wide margin.

I'd be more interested in seeing HTHS on every 40 and 50 out there, since there's more room, as it were.

 

[BLND1]

I'm not saying it's specific to shell - It's about knowing your audience. 99.9% of the motoring public having zero clue means that there are a lot of sheep that need tending. One person in a group with a little bit more knowledge "hey x is the guy that knows a little about cars/oil.... what does he think I should buy," or some teenager asking their dad which oil to get (or even which lube shop to use) can have snowballing effects on consumption. Influencers are a thing even if we hate the term. You are sponsored by Shell, no? (I want to say you've said that in the past - sorry if I'm wrong). These small interactions are what drive viral marketing, hence my orange can of death reference above - how many people (even on this website) have said "I'll never use fram because x." (X being whatever second, third, or fourth hand version of an urban legend they heard). Same with any other product.

There HAS to be a middle ground between "check out our marketing nothing-speak" and "here are our trade secrets and confidential work products."

Even just acknowledging the need for secrecy "hey we can't get in to x, but let's just say we did some cool things with new y," would be night and day better for a company doing a Q&A on here than literally posting the same marketing statement in 5 different variations.

We live in a world where nearly the entire collective knowledge of the world is available at your fingertips. Restricting information that others readily put out isn't a winning move as we go forward.

Or maybe it is. Who knows.