Just found out about this fluid. Anyone know anymore than what AMSOIL's web page has to say? It sounds like you can put it where DIII goes. I wonder if it is any better than their ATF fluid.
AMSOIL's Torque-Drive®
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I would say you could put it a super heavy duty Allison tranny that does call for Dexron III, but it's not really for general automotive use in AT's that call for D III.
"AMSOIL Torque-Drive is recommended as a direct replacement for Allison® or Castrol® TranSynd®Synthetic ATF in heavy duty, on and off highway automatic transmissions manufactured by Allison®, General Motors®, Voith® and Ford® or wherever the standards TES-295, C-4, Dexron® III or Mercon® are specified. Examples of operations that benefit from using AMSOIL Torque-Drive include municipal or transit buses, garbage haulers, motor homes, delivery vans, emergency vehicles, school buses, dump trucks, utility vehicles, cement trucks, line haul trucks and tow trucks."
"AMSOIL Torque-Drive is recommended as a direct replacement for Allison® or Castrol® TranSynd®Synthetic ATF in heavy duty, on and off highway automatic transmissions manufactured by Allison®, General Motors®, Voith® and Ford® or wherever the standards TES-295, C-4, Dexron® III or Mercon® are specified. Examples of operations that benefit from using AMSOIL Torque-Drive include municipal or transit buses, garbage haulers, motor homes, delivery vans, emergency vehicles, school buses, dump trucks, utility vehicles, cement trucks, line haul trucks and tow trucks."
It's a good example of how Amsoil is able to reverse engineer some of these OEM fluids. This fluid is intended to exactly match the physical/chemical properties of the Castrol synthetic ATF in these transmissions, while undercutting it in price.
Tooslick
Tooslick
I think it is very similar to an earler formulation of AMSOIL ATF. I would think it not as good as the current AMSOIL ATF--except in the specific application it was designed for, and that primarily for warranty purposes.
MolaKule
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Actually I might have been a bit too critical.
For competition's sake, if you can reverse engineer a fluid and sell it cheaper, thereby saving the consumer some pocket change, then I say go for it.
I will say this, they must have felt that there would be a definite and future demand for the Allison fluid or they wouldn't have gone to the expense of analyzing the original fluid and recreating it in the lab.
As Pablo said earlier, Amsoil may have done the same thing with DM's ATF+4 to create their broad spectrum Universal ATF.
For competition's sake, if you can reverse engineer a fluid and sell it cheaper, thereby saving the consumer some pocket change, then I say go for it.
I will say this, they must have felt that there would be a definite and future demand for the Allison fluid or they wouldn't have gone to the expense of analyzing the original fluid and recreating it in the lab.
As Pablo said earlier, Amsoil may have done the same thing with DM's ATF+4 to create their broad spectrum Universal ATF.
You get the same Allison operation from Schaeffer's #239S Super Lube for $50 per 5-gallon pail, and it is actually Allison C-4 approved.
Amsoil ATD is $154 (less preferred customer discount) for 5 gallons, and doesn't say that Allison has issued the C-4 approval.
Allison charges $50,000 just to set up the equipment to quality an oil as equal to Transynd...no wonder only Castrol's Transynd has been qualified.
Ken
Amsoil ATD is $154 (less preferred customer discount) for 5 gallons, and doesn't say that Allison has issued the C-4 approval.
Allison charges $50,000 just to set up the equipment to quality an oil as equal to Transynd...no wonder only Castrol's Transynd has been qualified.
Ken
Ken2 wrote:
Prove it, please. The Schaeffer's web site site says:
MolaKule
Staff member
Yep, it's amazing what Amsoil can do with an FT-IR and a Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) machine at the U of W.
Ken2,
This is NOT just an Allison C-4 type fluid - it's a special extended drain version of the same stuff that up to now only the Castrol fluid could qualify for. It allows drain intervals up to six times the normal interval in specific applications. It's the "TES-295" specification that you have to meet in this case.
Tooslick
This is NOT just an Allison C-4 type fluid - it's a special extended drain version of the same stuff that up to now only the Castrol fluid could qualify for. It allows drain intervals up to six times the normal interval in specific applications. It's the "TES-295" specification that you have to meet in this case.
Tooslick
I've been told that the Allison TES-295 spec requires passing results against a reference fluid (Transynd) in a dynamometer test stand that is not currently available to lubricant marketers. To reassemble the dynamometer a lubricant manufacturer must pay Allison $50,000. This cost is the reason that no lubricant maker except Castrol has a qualified TES-295 fluid.
Has Amsoil actually qualified their ATD Torque-Drive fluid as a TES-295 fluid? Is Amsoil ATD approved by Allison as suitable for maintaining the Extended Transmission Coverage one, two, or three year unlimited mileage (with exceptions) warranty sold by Allison?
Ken
Has Amsoil actually qualified their ATD Torque-Drive fluid as a TES-295 fluid? Is Amsoil ATD approved by Allison as suitable for maintaining the Extended Transmission Coverage one, two, or three year unlimited mileage (with exceptions) warranty sold by Allison?
Ken
MolaKule
Staff member
There is a huge difference in the language here:
"Approved by Allison" and "Recommended by Amsoil as replacement for TranSynd and for use in all TES 295 applications."
To be fair, I am curious if Schaeffer's went through the test-stand qualifaction as well?
[ October 16, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
"Approved by Allison" and "Recommended by Amsoil as replacement for TranSynd and for use in all TES 295 applications."
To be fair, I am curious if Schaeffer's went through the test-stand qualifaction as well?
[ October 16, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Mola - That's my point.
NEITHER has been. But the assertion was that Schaefer's has been, but not Amsoil. I don't believe Schaeffer's has.
Amsoil is NOT being sneaky. They VERY CLEARLY say they copied TranSynd. They even (in corny laymen's terms) say how. They clearly talk about the warranty and the Allison extended warranty program and how Amsoil will stand behind any fluid related failures. They say the fluid is NOT approved - and we all know that is pretty much the way of Amsoil. They even say to use oil analysis for extended drains.
I'm not saying anything about Scheafer's here - they could easily have done the same and made a better fluid for all I know - but the assertion was, again: Schaefer's is approved Amsoil isn't.
PC cost of ATD is $107 for 5 gallons.
NEITHER has been. But the assertion was that Schaefer's has been, but not Amsoil. I don't believe Schaeffer's has.
Amsoil is NOT being sneaky. They VERY CLEARLY say they copied TranSynd. They even (in corny laymen's terms) say how. They clearly talk about the warranty and the Allison extended warranty program and how Amsoil will stand behind any fluid related failures. They say the fluid is NOT approved - and we all know that is pretty much the way of Amsoil. They even say to use oil analysis for extended drains.
I'm not saying anything about Scheafer's here - they could easily have done the same and made a better fluid for all I know - but the assertion was, again: Schaefer's is approved Amsoil isn't.
PC cost of ATD is $107 for 5 gallons.
The AMSOIL fluid has been fleet tested for well over a year now. Spectro analysis cannot distinguish between the AMSOIL product and the Castrol product. The fleets using it have no complaints.
Schaeffer does not claim to have a TES 295 fluid. They recommend either their ATF or TO-4 fluids, as suitable for the particular transmission model, both Allison C-4 rated.
Ken
MolaKule
Staff member
****,
"The AMSOIL fluid has been fleet tested for well over a year now. Spectro analysis cannot distinguish between the AMSOIL product and the Castrol product. The fleets using it have no complaints."
I have no doubt it is spectroscopically identical (I have seen a piece of the chart), and yes Amsoil stated exactly how they did it in laymens terms. Using the proper instrumentation and analysis tools, it would be fairly easy to accomplish; just relatively expensive.
My main point was that Al and Jr. must have felt the market could yield a ROI with XXXXXX gallons if they RE'd a fluid and sold it for less than Allison. A bold stroke for Al and Co.
If the Allison fluid is made by Castrol, there is no guarantee that the base fluids are Group IV and V, but most likely predominately Group III. And BTW, Group III fluids are great targets for ATF fluids since they are already about the same viscosity as ATF fluids and certainly more stable than Group I and II fluids.
[ October 17, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
"The AMSOIL fluid has been fleet tested for well over a year now. Spectro analysis cannot distinguish between the AMSOIL product and the Castrol product. The fleets using it have no complaints."
I have no doubt it is spectroscopically identical (I have seen a piece of the chart), and yes Amsoil stated exactly how they did it in laymens terms. Using the proper instrumentation and analysis tools, it would be fairly easy to accomplish; just relatively expensive.
My main point was that Al and Jr. must have felt the market could yield a ROI with XXXXXX gallons if they RE'd a fluid and sold it for less than Allison. A bold stroke for Al and Co.
If the Allison fluid is made by Castrol, there is no guarantee that the base fluids are Group IV and V, but most likely predominately Group III. And BTW, Group III fluids are great targets for ATF fluids since they are already about the same viscosity as ATF fluids and certainly more stable than Group I and II fluids.
[ October 17, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
btw
Lubrizol does a lot of the Amsoil field testing.
[ October 17, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
Lubrizol does a lot of the Amsoil field testing.
[ October 17, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
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