Fram Tough Guard vs Fram Ultra

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Originally Posted by Bill_W
The Fram Ultra Synthetic has two layers of media. One is full synthetic, the other is cellulose on the old version. But they add one more item, a wire mesh also.


Fram use to advertise the Ultra as both layers being "full synthetic" so I wonder if they have changed the media some. Right off Fram's website it still says for the Ultra media:
"2-ply synthetic, metal-screen-reinforced media provides 99%+ filtration efficiency." No mention of cellulose media there.

However, this pretty new video (Jan 4. 2019) does mention (time 30 seconds) synthetic and cellulose media.
 
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
The flow of the Ultra is not as good as the tough guard. My GM 6.0 lq9 was running M1 5w30 and ultras for 2 years. Slapping and ticking at startup. Warm or cold weather. I thought it was just the way GM V8s are because everybody on the interwebs says so. Just for giggles I switched to a spare tough guard on the fly, no oil change. The startup slap and ticking was gone. Had one Ultra left so I put it back on. Slapping and ticking came back. Same oil. So I was able to confirm my lq9, probably most gm v8 startup noise is related to oil flow at startup. I have changed my view on oil filters because of this experience and now run hi flow, lower efficiency oil filters only in all my vehicles.


I wouldn't conclude that it was the flow performance that made the difference. More likely the Ultras ADBV was leaking down if it was only noise on cold start-ups. Your engine may be very sensitive to any ADBV leakage and oiling system leak down. The bypass valve would not allow any flow to be cut to the motor if there was actually that much flow restriction going on, so there really wasn't any flow difference going on - unless the oil pump's pressure relief system was not working properly. Besides, nobody could conclude one filtrer "flows better" than another without an actual flow vs delta-p bench test on the oil filters. Think about it ... how could Ultras have a huge holding capacity to go 20K miles if they are that flow restrictive to start with.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Microscopic synthetic fibers create small windows that trap dirt particles without affecting oil flow.
Small windows because small holes are so 1999. What's next? Smart molecules? Or are the small windows equipped with venetian blinds?

The worst I ever came across was a fluff piece disguised as news in the realty section of a newspaper. The "writer" gushed on about the stairs leading to the second floor being "bi-directional." I suppose that meant a terrific saving — no need for a second staircase leading down to the main floor.

Small windows meet bi-directional stairs.
 
Figures of speech are usually meant for non-technical readers to grasp a concept.
grin2.gif
 
*Or doing a few 5K OCI drains using the Ultra with an engine in good condition .
Originally Posted by Lubener
If you are running synthetic and doing extended drains, then use an Ultra. That would be my only reason to install the higher priced filter.
 
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
The flow of the Ultra is not as good as the tough guard. My GM 6.0 lq9 was running M1 5w30 and ultras for 2 years. Slapping and ticking at startup. Warm or cold weather. I thought it was just the way GM V8s are because everybody on the interwebs says so. Just for giggles I switched to a spare tough guard on the fly, no oil change. The startup slap and ticking was gone. Had one Ultra left so I put it back on. Slapping and ticking came back. Same oil. So I was able to confirm my lq9, probably most gm v8 startup noise is related to oil flow at startup. I have changed my view on oil filters because of this experience and now run hi flow, lower efficiency oil filters only in all my vehicles.

It's been proven here over and over metal end caps are not better than paper. When paired with paper media they can be worse AKA tearolator. Some OEM Denso filters have no end caps at all. The material used for end caps is irrelevant. Fearing paper end caps is believing fake news.


The baseplate, anti drain valve, bypass valve, and can are the same on the Ultra and TG. If the Ultra medium restricts more, the bypass handles it. So you have a mystery there. The more even "windows" of man made fibers and their smoothness restrict less on Ultra vs TG, but it shouldn't matter as both have identical bypass valves. But going with what works in practice is not a bad idea either.
 
Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways
Like windows in an oil filter instead of holes. Gimme a break.


The word windows can have many meanings, windows to the past or future, windows of opportunity, house windows, and holes in media can also be called windows. Since the fibers define the edges of the holes like a window frame, it isn't so off a description of the holes.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Bill_W
The Fram Ultra Synthetic has two layers of media. One is full synthetic, the other is cellulose on the old version. But they add one more item, a wire mesh also.


Fram use to advertise the Ultra as both layers being "full synthetic" so I wonder if they have changed the media some. Right off Fram's website it still says for the Ultra media:
"2-ply synthetic, metal-screen-reinforced media provides 99%+ filtration efficiency." No mention of cellulose media there.

However, this pretty new video (Jan 4. 2019) does mention (time 30 seconds) synthetic and cellulose media.



I saw that video and that is why I mentioned the cellulose media was the old version. On Fram's website in the description for Ultra it says two layers of synthetic. I am assuming the website is the latest greatest as I heard Fram has been doing filter upgrades. Speaking of the Fram upgrades Fram upped the price of a 5 dollar filter to 7 dollar with a change of the ADBV material from nitrile rubber to silicone rubber. And leaky seals engine noise issue may well be what a good anti drain back should do. He can check his supply of filters and if the ADBV is black it is the old filter, red the new.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
The flow of the Ultra is not as good as the tough guard. My GM 6.0 lq9 was running M1 5w30 and ultras for 2 years. Slapping and ticking at startup. Warm or cold weather. I thought it was just the way GM V8s are because everybody on the interwebs says so.


Maybe everybody is right?

I wouldn't conclude that it was the flow performance that made the difference. More likely the Ultras ADBV was leaking down if it was only noise on cold start-ups. Your engine may be very sensitive to any ADBV leakage and oiling system leak down. The bypass valve would not allow any flow to be cut to the motor if there was actually that much flow restriction going on, so there really wasn't any flow difference going on - unless the oil pump's pressure relief system was not working properly. Besides, nobody could conclude one filtrer "flows better" than another without an actual flow vs delta-p bench test on the oil filters. Think about it ... how could Ultras have a huge holding capacity to go 20K miles if they are that flow restrictive to start with.


More likely the Tough Guard filter ADBV is leaking down since Fram has upgraded that filter to a silicone ADBV. You are right about the oil pump has the power to kick the oil filter into bypass if there were any issues with oil flow. A gear pump is all about PSI, not flow. How fast the pump moves will just ramp up the PSI.
 
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Originally Posted by Bill_W
I saw that video and that is why I mentioned the cellulose media was the old version. On Fram's website in the description for Ultra it says two layers of synthetic. I am assuming the website is the latest greatest as I heard Fram has been doing filter upgrades.


I think the info in the new video is the latest info. If Fram's website still says the Ultra is all synthetic media then that's left over old information, as I mentioned before.

Originally Posted by Bill_W
And leaky seals engine noise issue may well be what a good anti drain back should do. He can check his supply of filters and if the ADBV is black it is the old filter, red the new.


LeakySeals said he was running an Ultra, which have had a silicone ADBV ever since they were invented.
 
It's possible to have a silicone ADBV leak, I've had a couple of Fram/Champion made CQ Blue filters do it, not sure why, they didn't leak when new, but started roughly 1500-2000 miles in. Which was unacceptable on a 4.6, chain tensioners need PSI ASAP on a cold start.
 
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
The flow of the Ultra is not as good as the tough guard. My GM 6.0 lq9 was running M1 5w30 and ultras for 2 years. Slapping and ticking at startup. Warm or cold weather. I thought it was just the way GM V8s are because everybody on the interwebs says so. Just for giggles I switched to a spare tough guard on the fly, no oil change. The startup slap and ticking was gone. Had one Ultra left so I put it back on. Slapping and ticking came back. Same oil. So I was able to confirm my lq9, probably most gm v8 startup noise is related to oil flow at startup. I have changed my view on oil filters because of this experience and now run hi flow, lower efficiency oil filters only in all my vehicles.
.

He presumes that the slapping and ticking at statrup is normal because everybody on the inter webs says so. Then a Tough Guard filter goes in. Quiet... Gotta be the anti drain back valve cause that filter just had that changed for a silicone valve and most likely his was the black kind. Maybe it is what He said that everybody on the interweb says that is what Chevys do on startup.
[Linked Image]


Flow rate is better with synthetic media I have heard over synthetic blend and cellulose paper.
 
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Originally Posted by Bill_W
He presumes that the slapping and ticking at statrup is normal because everybody on the inter webs says so. Then a Tough Guard filter goes in. Quiet... Gotta be the anti drain back valve cause that filter just had that changed for a silicone valve and most likely his was the black kind.


Ultras have always had a silicone ADBV - thats the filter he claims made the start-up moise. But of course a silicone ADBV can still leak for various reasons.
 
I give up ZeeOSix...

OK gotta send one last shot... The noise in his Chevy when start up is normal with the Ultra filter. The quiet in his Chevy with the Tough Guard filter is not normal. The Fram filters have just been upgraded. There is a gen 1 Ultra Synthetic and a gen 2 Ultra Synthetic.

All I know for sure is the gen 1 Ultra Is good for15000 miles, the gen 2 Ultra is good for 20,000 miles.

I purchased a gen 2 Ultra Synthetic filter last week and that is the picture on a post above. I do not know if Gen 1 media had the two types of media but the picture above says two layers of synthetic media.

Thanks,
 
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Originally Posted by Bill_W
I give up ZeeOSix...


What are you trying to say?
21.gif
You realize that he claims it was an Ultra that made the start-up noises. You make it sound like it wasn't an Ultra. And the Ultra has always had a silicone ADBV, which as I've mentioned can also leak. No ADBV is perfect just because it's made of silicone. And yes, I agree as already mentioned that the noise is not from "flow restriction" but a bad ADBV if it's only noise at start-up.

If I recall correctly, the only Fram that had a nitrile ADBV that got upgraded toba a silicone ADBV was the Extra Guard (EG). The TG and Ultra a had silicone ADBV forever.
 
The Tough Guard does have a silicone ADBV, in fact it is the same as the Ultra Synthetic. The difference is it seats on that cardboard end and tube where the Ultra seats on the steel end cap. So we are not comparing apples to apples.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Bill_W
I give up ZeeOSix...

OK gotta send one last shot... The noise in his Chevy when start up is normal with the Ultra filter. The quiet in his Chevy with the Tough Guard filter is not normal. The Fram filters have just been upgraded. There is a gen 1 Ultra Synthetic and a gen 2 Ultra Synthetic.


I see you added a bunch with an edit, so will respond again. I don't see the reasoning behind this comment. Care to elaborate on the technical reason you think this?

Originally Posted by Bill_W
All I know for sure is the gen 1 Ultra Is good for15000 miles, the gen 2 Ultra is good for 20,000 miles.

I purchased a gen 2 Ultra Synthetic filter last week and that is the picture on a post above. I do not know if Gen 1 media had the two types of media but the picture above says two layers of synthetic media.

Thanks,


Yes, Gen1 (15K miles rated) Ultras had two layers with a wire backing. The Ultras have been rated at 20K (bumped up from 15K) for quite some time now (2 years or so ... don't recall, but it's been quite a while). If you're thinking the 20K mile rated Ultras are new and just came out, that's not the case. The statement on the Ultra box you posted agrees with the current website text on Fram's website, but does not agree with that new YouTube video posted earlier.
 
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