10 years ago, I contacted Briggs & Stratton about using synthetic 10W-30 in my lawn mower, rather than SAE 30 monograde. They did not recommend it, even though I did it anyhow. What I found interesting, however, was their statement that the mower's splash lubrication system was designed around SAE 30 and any other weight oil would not splash as well. What do I use now? I use Mobil 1 0W-40 and it works much better than old 30 wt.
Viscosity and Splash Lubrication
- Thread starter TxGreaseMonkey
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I'd really love to see some data on this ... or a video showing the splashing action.
--- Bror Jace
--- Bror Jace
A video would be interesting to say the least. How do they splash the oil in a verticle shaft lawnmower engine?
They use a slinger, driven off the camshaft gear.
What is the incentive to add cost and complexity for a full pressurized system? I'm all for new-tech, and I'm glad most manufacturers are finally putting OHV heads on the mowers rather than side valves because there's a direct benefit to the air quality and fuel economy. But the lubrication system? As you say, splash lube has been in use on small engines successfully for almost a century. Why change that?
I certainly understand the pressure lubrication on an automotive engine...it's large enough and works hard enough as to require a pressure lube system. But a single cylinder lawn mower engine just ain't there (yet). Keep it as simple as you can while still providing sufficient performance. As you say, "it works". That's why it's still around, and will be for a long time probably. I recently purchased two lawn mowers, and neither time did I even consider the type of lubrication system.
I certainly understand the pressure lubrication on an automotive engine...it's large enough and works hard enough as to require a pressure lube system. But a single cylinder lawn mower engine just ain't there (yet). Keep it as simple as you can while still providing sufficient performance. As you say, "it works". That's why it's still around, and will be for a long time probably. I recently purchased two lawn mowers, and neither time did I even consider the type of lubrication system.
TxGreaseMonkey,
If that's what Briggs and Straton said, I think it is misleading. At operating temperature, there should be no difference in the viscosity of a 10W-30 or a straight 30 weight oil. A straight weight oil's viscosity is measured only at operating temperature to determine its viscosity rating. Therefore, it is valid to say that a straight weight rated as SAE 30 weight is a 30 weight at operating temps (210 deg. F?) but its viscosity at 0 degrees F is undefined, (or I should say, unspecified). Therefore, a vendor could legally market a 0W-30, a 5W-30, or a 10W-30 as SAE 30 straight weight. I'm not saying oil vendors DO market them this way, just that I think it is possible to do this legally with the current SAE viscosity rating system.
Am I correct?
If that's what Briggs and Straton said, I think it is misleading. At operating temperature, there should be no difference in the viscosity of a 10W-30 or a straight 30 weight oil. A straight weight oil's viscosity is measured only at operating temperature to determine its viscosity rating. Therefore, it is valid to say that a straight weight rated as SAE 30 weight is a 30 weight at operating temps (210 deg. F?) but its viscosity at 0 degrees F is undefined, (or I should say, unspecified). Therefore, a vendor could legally market a 0W-30, a 5W-30, or a 10W-30 as SAE 30 straight weight. I'm not saying oil vendors DO market them this way, just that I think it is possible to do this legally with the current SAE viscosity rating system.
Am I correct?
btanchors, your post above would be perfectly correct if that 10W-30 did not shear down. However, most conventional 10W-30s shear a great deal ... even in a liquid-cooled engine.
So how would they fare in an air-cooled motor? My guess is that most 10W-30s would be a 10W-20 after about 4 to 5 hours if not sooner.
That's probably why many of the manufacturers still recommend straight-weights for their air-cooled engines.
--- Bror Jace
So how would they fare in an air-cooled motor? My guess is that most 10W-30s would be a 10W-20 after about 4 to 5 hours if not sooner.
That's probably why many of the manufacturers still recommend straight-weights for their air-cooled engines.
--- Bror Jace
Unfortunately, I don't know the legalities but my common sense says you couldn't get away with it.
Don't forget that the current Briggs and Stratton recommendation is to use synthetic 5w30 or 10w30 in all temperature ranges; They do not recommend the use of multigrade dino oil. They even sell under their own brand a 5w30 synthetic.
Multigrade synthetics should work well with the oil slingers in these simple engines. It would probably at least double the cost of these engines to put a pressure lubrication system in them, and to what end?-They already usually outlast the other components of the mower now.
Multigrade synthetics should work well with the oil slingers in these simple engines. It would probably at least double the cost of these engines to put a pressure lubrication system in them, and to what end?-They already usually outlast the other components of the mower now.
Jason, check out http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/vert_fj180v.asp for the Kawasaki FJ180V with a pressureized oiling system and spin-on filter. We are getting there, dragged sideways, kicking and screeming. My new Cub Cadet mower (made by MTD) was about $40 more than the same "deck" MTD with a Honda engine. I also got a 6 walking speed selector that the base MTD dident. Why? Sorry to steal the post. DaveJ
DaveJ, I'm not arguing with the superiority of pressure lubrication at all...just arguing against its usefulness on something such as a lawnmower. 20-30 quart oil sumps are common place on large diesel engines. Does that mean a Chevy Cobalt needs a 20-quart sump? No, it'd be overkill. Automotive engines have had pressurized lubrication systems for ever. Does that mean a lawn mower engine needs it?
I guess the market will be the true test. Both types of lubrication systems will do the job. How many people put a priority on a pressure lube system over another aspect of the mower, or how many people will pay extra for a pressure lube system? I guess only time will tell... Personally, would I consider a pressure lube engine on my mower? Sure! Would I pay extra just to have that, or prioritze THAT aspect over another, like engine brand preference or that engine's availability (or lack thereof) on a deck I like? Nope. It sounds like you got a good deal on yours, on a deck you like. If the sitation arose that I found an engine I like on a deck that I wanted, and the engine happened to have pressure lube, then I'd start to stock up on little itty bitty oil filters.
BTW, based on this thread and others, I think I've put the last bit of 10W-30 in my small engines. I'm moving to a 15W-40.
I guess the market will be the true test. Both types of lubrication systems will do the job. How many people put a priority on a pressure lube system over another aspect of the mower, or how many people will pay extra for a pressure lube system? I guess only time will tell... Personally, would I consider a pressure lube engine on my mower? Sure! Would I pay extra just to have that, or prioritze THAT aspect over another, like engine brand preference or that engine's availability (or lack thereof) on a deck I like? Nope. It sounds like you got a good deal on yours, on a deck you like. If the sitation arose that I found an engine I like on a deck that I wanted, and the engine happened to have pressure lube, then I'd start to stock up on little itty bitty oil filters.
BTW, based on this thread and others, I think I've put the last bit of 10W-30 in my small engines. I'm moving to a 15W-40.
Come on, Jason, don't give up on 10w30 yet, as long as its synthetic. My Sears Craftsman Honda 5.5 has had 4 years of M1 5w30, and this year it is using 0w30. According to my engine hour meter, the 0w30 has 22 hours on it so far this year[I changed oil in March or April, I forget which] and it is still about 1/16th of an inch above full. It was about 1/8th inch over full when I changed it, so it has apparently used a small amount. If it gets down below the full mark this year, I may go back to 5w30, as it never used a drop of that weight.
I use the mower in the winter months to clean up leaves, so I want the oil as thin as possible when it is cold, for easier starting. The oil slinger surely does a better job when the cold oil is thinner.
By the way, what have you read here that has put you off using 10w30 oil?
I use the mower in the winter months to clean up leaves, so I want the oil as thin as possible when it is cold, for easier starting. The oil slinger surely does a better job when the cold oil is thinner.
By the way, what have you read here that has put you off using 10w30 oil?
That is certainly a great looking engine. It's fuel tank hold twice as much as my Honda 160, but it holds the same 20 ounces of oil. Actually, 19.2 according to the specs. How much over $300 does a mower cost with this engine? With that iron cylinder liner and everything else, it is speced like a Honda commercial grade that would cost $700 to $1000.
DAVEJ: I see on the Kawasaki site that if you purchase a six pack of their Kawasaki 4 cycle oil, they will double the engine warranty. Were you offered this deal? I wonder what kind and weight oil this is, and how much does it cost?
1999, I havent a clue how much it cost. My wife knew I was wanting a new mower and she bought it from Lowes. I do know we have been saving change in a 5 gal water bottle and its near empty now. I was looking before and I thought it was about $450ish. Back to oil, I will dump the factory fill soon and start using a 15W40 Syn. I may try a 10W40 or 10W30 Syn but I just cant bring myself to try 5WXX or 0WXX in an air cooled engine. DaveJ
Just the amount of people who live in the hot states who feel more comfortable with a heavier weight oil, and who state how much a conventional 10W-30 will shear down. I never run my small engines when it's the least bit cold outside. Daytime temperatures during the "leaf season" here are in the 60s and 70s, and there's really not much of a leaf season anyway, so most all the mowing is done when it's 70-100 degrees outside.
I have a problem paying $4-5/qt. for oil that I'm going to change out every season anyway, so I don't really care to use synthetic. Pennzoil 15W-40 looks real good, and I think I'll try it next. I've never had a problem at all even with conventional 10W-30 (which is what I run now), but if 15W-40 oil will shear down to near a 30W when hot, I figure that's just about right. And as I say, cold temperatures aren't an issue for me. The mower never comes out unless it's at least 60 degrees...not intentionally, that's just how warm it is here.
Funny thing, Jason. 15W-40 Pennzoil is exactly what I recently put in my new Craftsman yardvac with a 4.5 hp Tecumseh engine. On the yardvac, this engine runs with so much apparent strain that it burns a tank of fuel in about 35 minutes. This is why I decided to use a thicker oil. The exhaust comes out really strong. It apparentaly turns a really heavy impeller to do the vacuuming, as it is a very hard pull to start. I may change this oil out for a 0W-40 or 5W-40 to see if the pull is any easier, expecially since I'm going to be using it mainly in the cold months to keep my driveway and parking area clean.
By the way, my Honda mower just finished 5 years on M1 5W-30, instead of 4. I bought it in 2000 to replace a mower I gave to one of my sons when he moved into his new house, and he reminded me that it was 2000.
I put the hour meter on the mower last year, and it appears that I've been using it slightly over 50 hours a year. Right now I would think it has about 275 hours on it. I had to buy one new rear wheel about 2 months ago, as the tire just split apart at a seam. The two front drive wheels are getting to be very smooth, and I'll probably replace them soon. That will cost about $23.00 plus shipping. The grass bag is beginning to wear-out, also. It already has one small hole in it. A new one will be something over $40.00.
Two quarts of M1, at about $4.50 a quart, is $9.00. Two quarts will be enough for 3 yearly oil changes. $3.00 per year does not sound like very much in light of all the other maintenance expenses.
By the way, my Honda mower just finished 5 years on M1 5W-30, instead of 4. I bought it in 2000 to replace a mower I gave to one of my sons when he moved into his new house, and he reminded me that it was 2000.
I put the hour meter on the mower last year, and it appears that I've been using it slightly over 50 hours a year. Right now I would think it has about 275 hours on it. I had to buy one new rear wheel about 2 months ago, as the tire just split apart at a seam. The two front drive wheels are getting to be very smooth, and I'll probably replace them soon. That will cost about $23.00 plus shipping. The grass bag is beginning to wear-out, also. It already has one small hole in it. A new one will be something over $40.00.
Two quarts of M1, at about $4.50 a quart, is $9.00. Two quarts will be enough for 3 yearly oil changes. $3.00 per year does not sound like very much in light of all the other maintenance expenses.
I ought to put an hour meter on mine. I really don't have any idea how much they've been run. 2004 Craftsman with Honda GCV160 has been used probably 100 hours (complete guess). I also have a 1998-2001 Honda Masters (not sure of the year) with the GXV140 engine. I have no idea how much that one has been used, but it's in wonderful shape and purrs like a kitten. It's even quieter than the Craftsman (due to the reduced blade noise under the thick aluminum deck I think). Anyway, I've run both on whatever random 10W-30 oil I had laying around, with good results so far. And both still produce a real clean golden color on the oil, even after a good 50% of the season has gone by.
I've never been one to pay extra for something I didn't see the benefit in. Perhaps there is a material benefit in using synthetic oil in these engines, but I've just never had a problem on conventional oil before, so I tend not to stray from it. With a combined 200k miles on both of our vehicles (all on conventional oil), I feel a bit of a comfort in what I know. Synthetic oil may be "better", but I'm sure it'll be a while before I ever use it. It's one of those "intangible" opinions that you can't really explain.
I've never been one to pay extra for something I didn't see the benefit in. Perhaps there is a material benefit in using synthetic oil in these engines, but I've just never had a problem on conventional oil before, so I tend not to stray from it. With a combined 200k miles on both of our vehicles (all on conventional oil), I feel a bit of a comfort in what I know. Synthetic oil may be "better", but I'm sure it'll be a while before I ever use it. It's one of those "intangible" opinions that you can't really explain.
I'd like to know how much that Kawie oil costs ... and how long the warranty is for.
Often, the manufacturers want you to buy a $50+ extended warranty ... and getting owners to purchase vastly over-priced OEM oils may be a sneaky way to accomplish the same sort of thing.
As for 15W-40, I use Schaeffer synthetic blend which flows pretty well in the cold. My second choice would be the newest formulation of Chevron Delo400 in 15W-40. I used to recommend Pennzoil Long Life but they dumped moly out of their formula ... but may have added it back in since then.
I think the 15W-40s are pretty stable and probably don't thin out much even when pressed hard in moderate-to-high temps.
If I felt any of my OPE struggling on 15W-40, I'd use Schaeffer 10W-30. Let's see that stuff shear down.
I'd also bet the 10W-30 versions of Delo400 and Pennz Long Life would be very shear stable ... but they are so rare.
Yeah, I think Amsoil, Mobil 1, etc ... will protect and offer a bit more net horsepower, but I haven't felt that 15W-40 has let me down and hate dumping the synthetic aftre just 1 year of use.
In any event, I have never, ever worn out an engine on a piece of OPE yet. Our snowblower is about 20 years old and I'd bet something else will break catastrophically before the engine detonates or wears out.
--- Bror Jace
Often, the manufacturers want you to buy a $50+ extended warranty ... and getting owners to purchase vastly over-priced OEM oils may be a sneaky way to accomplish the same sort of thing.
As for 15W-40, I use Schaeffer synthetic blend which flows pretty well in the cold. My second choice would be the newest formulation of Chevron Delo400 in 15W-40. I used to recommend Pennzoil Long Life but they dumped moly out of their formula ... but may have added it back in since then.
I think the 15W-40s are pretty stable and probably don't thin out much even when pressed hard in moderate-to-high temps.
If I felt any of my OPE struggling on 15W-40, I'd use Schaeffer 10W-30. Let's see that stuff shear down.
I'd also bet the 10W-30 versions of Delo400 and Pennz Long Life would be very shear stable ... but they are so rare.
Yeah, I think Amsoil, Mobil 1, etc ... will protect and offer a bit more net horsepower, but I haven't felt that 15W-40 has let me down and hate dumping the synthetic aftre just 1 year of use.
In any event, I have never, ever worn out an engine on a piece of OPE yet. Our snowblower is about 20 years old and I'd bet something else will break catastrophically before the engine detonates or wears out.
--- Bror Jace
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