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Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835100
08/09/18 08:42 AM
08/09/18 08:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,046
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,046
MA, Mittelfranken.de
And its delivered by Unicorns.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835106
08/09/18 08:48 AM
08/09/18 08:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 7,266
Mahzurrah!
KCJeep Offline
KCJeep  Offline

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 7,266
Mahzurrah!
I thought I had read high doses of the older type moly were bad for LSPI? I don't remember now. I would never run the stuff but it sounds like a great oil for a little mixing or top off.

I would disagree that high VI is always a good thing, actually not good for timing chains, but I do like oils loaded with goodies and this one certainly delivers.


2018 VW Passat GT VR6 - 11k - Castrol Professional 5w40 - VW OEM filter
2012 KIA Sedona 100k - PP HM 10w30
2009 Ford Focus 138k - Valvoline 5w30
2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee, gone but not forgotten.
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835147
08/09/18 09:31 AM
08/09/18 09:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 809
N.A.
Onetor Offline
Onetor  Offline

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 809
N.A.
Impressive Gokhan! Doesn't Schaeffer's have a high Moly #? Best = Subjective. I like the table.


N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: dippschtick] #4835493
08/09/18 02:50 PM
08/09/18 02:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: dippschtick
Sooo, my 12 quarts of TGMO 0w20 read P8196F and P8197B on the front and back respectively. Also the copyright date on the bottom front reads 2017.

Any thoughts?

Interesting. Since the codes are different, I'm pretty sure that the formulation has changed again.

Perhaps you can do a VOA through WearCheck. They also check for VI.

I found two TGMO MSDS's dating back to 2016 and 2018. They both claimed practically 100% Group III, especially the 2018 one, and the 2018 MSDS showed VI = 180 -- definitely a dramatically different formulation. Perhaps TGMO no longer uses GTL and the VII content has been significantly reduced as well.

So much with the TGMO made great again. I guess it didn't last very long. shrug


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4835505
08/09/18 02:59 PM
08/09/18 02:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Wasn't there something about high doses of moly making it hard to pass a TEOST test?
My old brain is rattling away but no more details are forthcoming from it...

Yes, 0W-20 and 0W-16 are exempt from TEOST 33C because the Japanese OEM's like to have high moly in these viscosity grades to further boost the fuel economy and high moly makes it difficult to pass TEOST 33C. Therefore, at the request of Japanese OEM's, ILSAC has exempted 0W-20 and 0W-16 from TEOST 33C in GF-5 as well as GF-6 so that the Japanese OEM's (such as TGMO) can load these with high moly (> 600 ppm).



1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: KCJeep] #4835525
08/09/18 03:13 PM
08/09/18 03:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I thought I had read high doses of the older type moly were bad for LSPI? I don't remember now. I would never run the stuff but it sounds like a great oil for a little mixing or top off.

I would disagree that high VI is always a good thing, actually not good for timing chains, but I do like oils loaded with goodies and this one certainly delivers.

Ah, moly is actually good for LSPI prevention. The type of moly doesn't really matter.

How oil affects LSPI

Regarding moly types, trinuclear moly is very potent, working fairly well in smaller doses, but I now realize that it seems to be overhyped.

I recently read a paper on a study with different moly types. I think the conclusion was that the dinuclear moly, which is the most common type of moly made by additive companies, is the best in reducing both friction and wear, as well as in having good synergy with ZDDP. This is probably especially so for high moly content. I can't readily find the link though. It's a long paper by Japanese researchers (who else?).

Regarding timing chains, you are right that you probably want the thickest base oil (least VII content) but with high VI (such as PAO, GTL, or Group III+++). In that sense probably a synthetic 5W-20 or 5W-16 is the best.

Do you think that's "thick" oil? Think again!


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835652
08/09/18 05:52 PM
08/09/18 05:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
HKPolice Offline
HKPolice  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I thought I had read high doses of the older type moly were bad for LSPI? I don't remember now. I would never run the stuff but it sounds like a great oil for a little mixing or top off.

I would disagree that high VI is always a good thing, actually not good for timing chains, but I do like oils loaded with goodies and this one certainly delivers.

Ah, moly is actually good for LSPI prevention. The type of moly doesn't really matter.

How oil affects LSPI

Regarding moly types, trinuclear moly is very potent, working fairly well in smaller doses, but I now realize that it seems to be overhyped.

I recently read a paper on a study with different moly types. I think the conclusion was that the dinuclear moly, which is the most common type of moly made by additive companies, is the best in reducing both friction and wear, as well as in having good synergy with ZDDP. This is probably especially so for high moly content. I can't readily find the link though. It's a long paper by Japanese researchers (who else?).

Regarding timing chains, you are right that you probably want the thickest base oil (least VII content) but with high VI (such as PAO, GTL, or Group III+++). In that sense probably a synthetic 5W-20 or 5W-16 is the best.

Do you think that's "thick" oil? Think again!


There have been dozens of UOA from either high moly oil or regular oil /w liqui moly MoS2 additive mixed in. None of them show any significant reduction to wear metals.

I think the only benefit of high MoDTC oil is in boundary layer lubrication which doesn't really happen unless you drain all the oil from the engine. Tri nuclear moly is more than enough for the minimal boundary layer cases that occur during normal operation.

High dose MoDTC will make a come back when 0w16 & 0w8 oils become mainstream, that's when it'll make a real difference.

Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: HKPolice] #4835675
08/09/18 06:24 PM
08/09/18 06:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 965
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 965
WA
Question:

Originally Posted By: OilUzer
... Why is it (moly) not more widely used by others if it improves the mpg? Does moly have other benefits besides mpg at least for Toyota's engine design?


Thanks for the answer. I've read before that Toyota likes to deal with proven (older) technology and slower to change (which I like) ... So they are doing it with oil as well plus add to that it's cheaper theory and it all makes sense!

Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Having such a high dose of moly doesn't automatically mean it's better.

It just means they're still using the old MoS2 form of moly whereas all other modern oils have switched to the new Tri Nuclear form of moly which only requires a ~80ppm dose to be effective.

Why would Toyota still use the old MoS2 form of moly? Japanese companies are resistant to change, their oil engineers are probably at retirement age and don't trust many new types of anti wear additive especially at such low doses. Mazda also has an OEM 0w20 oil that has high moly content, but UOA reports show nothing exceptional.

Cost is another reason, Tri nuclear moly is more expensive and high doses of old MoS2 can coat the catalytic converter which ruins it (not a big issue unless your engine is burning oil).

Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835708
08/09/18 06:51 PM
08/09/18 06:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,067
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,067
...
ď....IsTGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? ....Ē

Not likely. A odd title for a thread.

Does this oil perform so much better than the major brands? I would doubt it. Iím sure itís good oil but letís not put it on a pedestal.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835719
08/09/18 07:00 PM
08/09/18 07:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 965
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 965
WA
The only oil made in heaven is extra virgin olive oil shocked2 grin2

Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835728
08/09/18 07:05 PM
08/09/18 07:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Ha! Oil-Club Russia concluded that the new TGMO 0W-20 SN (well, the 2015 formulation, not the 2017) is GTL through their FTIR (Fourier-transform infrared spectroscopy). This is the conclusion I reached using my base-oil-quality index (BOQI). I like these guys! Perhaps I'll let them use my BOQI. wink

They also concluded that the moly used is the Vanderbilt Molyvan 855, not the Infineum trinuclear moly used in the original TGMO 0W-20 SN formulation. Again, I like these guys! They explain the boron additive as well. Their comments on LSPI and pretty much everything else are right on. These guys are very knowledgeable indeed.

Oil-Club Russia test of TGMO 0W-20 SN (2015 formulation)



1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: OilUzer] #4835731
08/09/18 07:06 PM
08/09/18 07:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 9,615
Texas
4WD Online confused
4WD  Online Confused

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 9,615
Texas
Originally Posted By: OilUzer
The only oil made in heaven is extra virgin olive oil shocked2 grin2


Probably made at the BMT refinery near the Texas/Louisiana line Ö
Only heaven if you love seafood wink

Re: Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL [Re: Gokhan] #4835743
08/09/18 07:22 PM
08/09/18 07:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
They also concluded that the moly used is the Vanderbilt Molyvan 855, not the Infineum trinuclear moly used in the original TGMO 0W-20 SN formulation.

Hmm, Vanderbilt Molyvan 855 is sulfur-free moly. According to the Infineum presentation on trinuclear moly, sulfur-free moly doesn't work well because it doesn't resemble or generate molybdenum disulfide MoS_2.

Infineum presentation on trinuclear moly


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
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