Gas In Oil (Honda F12X Personal Watercraft) Please Help!

[4 Fun]

I am a new member in this forum and I need some serious help.

Honda has introduced 4 stroke personal watercraft into the market beginning in 2002. From day one, owners of this watercraft have been experiencing high levels of gasoline in their oil. This has been confirmed many times via oil analysis. Gasoline content is measured between 5...10% routinely (this is with as little as 10 hours run time on the oil, and the manufacturer recomending 50...200 hour oil change intervals!) Theories include: PWC runs cold; data loggers record 90...147degrees (f); PWC runs ritch: Fuel mixture 12.6 / 1 @ idle; 11.9 /1 WOT A/F ratios (verefied.) Also lots of running at idle / low rpm because of no wake zones (engine max RPM 6800; suspect average cruising speed for a lot of people is very low with lots of ide); blow by because the engine is turbo charged and fuel injected. Testing has involved leak down, fuel rail pressure, fuel injectors, compresson, etc; specific root cause remains un-identified.

While we work to deduce the specific cause of the problem, I'm looking for the best method to continue to run the PWC, minimizing the risk of what contamination can do over time. This is where we desparately need this forum's expert's advice. Would you suggest:

Reduced oil change intervals (obvious),
specific oil types (e.g. Red Line because of the ester based stock.) (Note: This is a direct drive PWC; no gear reduction; no clutch; engine oil is only used for engine (not shared.) Engine has a sump type oil system if that means anything.)
specific oil weights (e.g. 20W-50 versus Honda spec of 10W-40)
oil additives (please help and be specific; brand, target content and why; and what volumes)
gas additives (please help and be specific; brand, target content and why; and what volumes)
oil additive brew? (In my personal case I am running Red Line 10W-40 if that helps.)
gass additive brew? (In my personal case I am running Red Line 10W-40 if that helps.)
What oils would you stay away from?
What would the ideal gas package contain to help combat this (the side effects this can cause.)
What would the ideal additivve package containg to help combat this (the side effects this can cause.)

Obviously the first and best defense is to determine and mitigate the problem. In the mean time, many members of the Honda PWC community would appreciate your expert's immediate and detailed assistance. PLEASE HELP! Sincerely, Christian...

 

[TooSlick]

I'd run a diesel formulated, ie CI-4 rated, 5w-40,10w-40 or 15w-40, due to the high fuel dilution. With 5%-10% fuel in the oil, this will probably thin out to an SAE 10w-30 or even 5w-30, which should work fine. As just one example, I'd recommend the Amsoil 15w-40, diesel and marine engine oil for this particular application, which uses special rust and corrosion inhibitors. If you wanted to use a Mobil synthetic, I'd run their Delvac 1, 5w-40, etc ....

Due to the fuel dilution, I'd avoid typical fuel additives of any kind, since many contain strong solvents which will further degrade the lubricating properties of the oil. If anything, I might mix a small amount of ashless, TC-W3, synthetic two stroke oil in with the gas, at say a 100:1 mix ratio. That will improve the lubricating properties of the fuel and might decrease piston ring/cylinder wear and fuel induced corrosion.

Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics

 

[HOndaGuy]

4fun, my 2002 f12x(im hondaguy2582 on pwctoday) has no gas in the oil. I changed dino oil every 20 hrs, but now im running the amsoil 10w40 with 50 hr change intervals.

 

[Cujet]

Very interesting thread! I am in the market for one of those watercraft, as my SeaDon't is not the most reliable PWC.

Fuel dilution of the oil is common in many 4 stroke engines. Much more so than some people realize. My favorite oil, M1 15W-50 would seem to be a good choice. RL oils are quality oils also, however I had very, very poor results (confirmed) with RL racing 2 stroke oil so I tend to stay from RL. Also a rumor circulates that RL and Amsoil actually purchase synthetic base stocks from Mobil, this I have not confirmed.

I believe the X model is turbocharged, so synthetics are a better choice.

PCV systems do help eliminate fuel contamination, and PCV systems that form a low pressure area in the crankcase are more effective. Toyota uses this method with great results. In other words, airflow into the crankcase is carefully modulated and restricted and vacuum into the crankcase is strong.

How about changing the thermostat if possible?

If the engine is truly running at the temps you say, that will result in more rapid cylinder wear. Cylinder bores/rings of most any modern type and material start to show high wear as the temperature goes down. A good rule of thumb is 160F is the point below which excessive wear occurs. Believe it or not higher cylinder wall temps result in less wear. The long life of modern automobiles is partially due to the high temps the engines are run at. Often over 100 deg C cylinder wall temp.

Chris

 

[Schmoe]

Stay away from oil/gas additives. I would move up to a thicker oil for starters, like a 15W-50. You are running into a common problem among us boaters, long idle and blowby. It is not uncommon for fuel dilution in any 4 stroke marine engine, it's the nature of the beast. These engines work very hard and then go straight to idle. Your going to get some fuel in with the oil. If there is any way you can decrease your idle time and get more WOT runs, you'll find your dilution values going down. When you did run a UOA, did you get TBN? If that number is still good, say 3 or 4 and above, I wouldn't worry about the dilution so much. Just be prepared to change out your oil based on a set number of hours. I'd try the 15W-50 M1 and see if that helps. Also, I'm not familiar with that sump system, but is there anyway it can be adjusted?

 

[Hasbeen]

Ok, I`ll open myself up for the abuse I`m sure I will get.

Yes, most additives are just a good way to separate you from your money, but as is Auto RX a great additive, so is this one.,

Try this fuel additive, it will give you a more complete combustion of your fuel and thus reduce your fuel delution. Honest, and it will not harm your engine in any way, It`s a pure hydrocarbon product and developed for the aviation industry which has higher standards than anyone.

GTA FUEL ENHANCER

The use of this product will make you think you have a different jet ski. I`ve been using it in everything I own for a few months, and I will not be without it anymore.

I have no affiliation.

[ June 03, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Hasbeen ]

 

[Steve S]

I would do frequent oil changes . Marine use is brutal on engines. Real hard duty.

 

[BUBBA0420]

Hi 4fun: yes you are not alone on this as I have a 2002 F12X that the oil level rises on also
From pwctoday the is long thread on this under the Honda section. Some one recommended SPECTRA
racing oil but I have never heard of it or know
where to get it. Whatever you do I would stay with a motorcycle rated oil as to not void the warranty. Supposedly they have fixed the problem in the 2004 models by re-mapping the ECM

 

[toolman]

hey bubba and 4fun,
ultra toolman here from pwctoday...
glad to see you posted this here so we can find some great answers to this problem..

cujet..there is no thermostat to change unfortunately..

remapping the ecm and raising the operating temp would be the way to go but so far no one has found a way to do this..

looks like our only option will be more frequent oil changes,i am doing them at 25-30 hrs now..basically every 3rd weekend..

 

[toolman]

hey bubba and 4fun,
ultra toolman here from pwctoday...
glad to see you posted this here so we can find some great answers to this problem..

cujet..there is no thermostat to change unfortunately..

remapping the ecm and raising the operating temp would be the way to go but so far no one has found a way to do this..

looks like our only option will be more frequent oil changes,i am doing them at 25-30 hrs now..basically every 3rd weekend..

 

[BUBBA0420]

Well Toolman and 4fun I just changed my oil in my
F12X today and pumped out 6 qts. Definetly smelled of Gasoline also

 

[wileyE]

See this in bike motors that use nicasil lined cylinders,I'd bet the honda is built the same. The cyl is as hard as the ring and it just takes longer to wear in. On twostrokes you see signs of blowby and heat under the ring, 4 strokes use oil and you'll test fuel in the oil My buds BMW took over 10,000 before it started going a way in his oil samples, oil usage went down too. Yamaha rx1 motors are the same way.

 

[BUBBA0420]

Well 4fun,Toolman: I am resurrecting this old
post as I have just changed my oil again in
my 2002 F12X and did NOT find any fuel dilution
this time. The ski now has 63 hrs and ran about
20 hrs on the previous oil change. Looks like
wileyE has the right idea maybe they just take
a long time to fully break in