Redline base oils

[Hammehead]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Since I mentioned the aniline point tests that I had done around year 2005, I found the results and they are below. I mis-remembered when I said above that German Castrol was tested.

M1 TDT was of CI-4+ formulation. All 3 oils were Mobil 1.
Aniline measurements:

5W-40 TDT (Turbo Diesel Truck): 276F
0W-40: 254F
10W-30 High Mileage: 248F

For comparison, Mobil's SpectraSyn Plus PAO of 6 cst viscosity has an aniline point of 257F (125C).
https://www.tri-iso.com/documents/exxonmobil_chemical_spectrasyn_plus_Brochure.pdf

Slide 7 in the following document shows where different base oils fall on the aniline point result range:
https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG...pplications.pdf
Esters are shown down around 32F (0C).

My conclusion about the polarity of the base oil mixtures in the Mobil 1 oils tested. They were all very low in polarity.


Mobil 1, I think from what I gatthered here, uses about 15% AN and 2% Esterex (to help addpack solvent?), don´t know if any Diester or POE, if any, though. That would explain the different polarity you experienced.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Hammehead


Mobil 1, I think from what I gatthered here, uses about 15% AN and 2% Esterex (to help addpack solvent?), don´t know if any Diester or POE, if any, though. That would explain the different polarity you experienced.


Esterex is a range of Esters that includes POE (Polyol Esters) and diesters.

 

[Hammehead]

Good, but at minute 2% treat rate of good stuff. The remaining ester is AN. well, it works fine, so ...

I´m interested in Redline, more.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Hammehead
Good, but at minute 2% treat rate of good stuff. The remaining ester is AN.


AN isn't an ester, it's an alkylated naphthalene. It is included in the Group V category with Esters however.

 

[Hammehead]

Totally right. I misworded Group V as Esteres

And that gives 17% of group V in my account
roughly 56% PAO as discussed
and the remaining 27%? Visom, Group III, III+...

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: Hammehead
Totally right. I misworded Group V as Esteres

And that gives 17% of group V in my account
roughly 56% PAO as discussed
and the remaining 27%? Visom, Group III, III+...


Welcome back from your vacation. I thought it was going to be a permanent one but evidently not.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: Hammehead
Totally right. I misworded Group V as Esteres

And that gives 17% of group V in my account
roughly 56% PAO as discussed
and the remaining 27%? Visom, Group III, III+...


Welcome back from your vacation. I thought it was going to be a permanent one but evidently not.


Who be this? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[Hammehead]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: Hammehead
Totally right. I misworded Group V as Esteres

And that gives 17% of group V in my account
roughly 56% PAO as discussed
and the remaining 27%? Visom, Group III, III+...


Welcome back from your vacation. I thought it was going to be a permanent one but evidently not.


Me too! This time I could come back as is... Thanks
How are you doing?

Aquariuscsm, that one is Rosetta. I knew it! Hahaha.

 

[kschachn]

Looks like about 30 days? That’s what you get for rude PMs I guess.

 

[PimTac]

Just as another one goes quiet.

 

[JAG]

I strongly suspect that aniline point of a mixture of x% PAO or Group III , y% AN, and z% ester, with aniline points of a, b, and c, respectively would be approximately:
x/100*a + y/100*b + z/100*b
Of course x + y + z = 100
Plug values into the equations and see if you get the aniline point values of the 3 Mobil oils above. Of course all measurements have some error, so keep that in mind. Approximate aniline point values for typical PAO, AN, and ester are: 125 C, 94 C, and 0 C. If you want to assume Group III instead of PAO, use aniline point of 121 C, which is almost the same as for PAO.
Conversion from degrees F to degrees C is: C = 5/9*(F-32)

 

[Hammehead]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Looks like about 30 days? That’s what you get for rude PMs I guess.


Are you talking to me?

You mean this?

Originally Posted By: kschachn
So Hammehead, in your private message to me I'm a "mere sewer rat"? Is that so?

Just so people know that when you can't carry on a rational and technical conversation here you resort to personal attacks in PM.

Did you PM Nyogtha too? What is he if I'm a sewer rat?


Please clarify.

 

[Hammehead]

Originally Posted By: JAG
I strongly suspect that aniline point of a mixture of x% PAO or Group III , y% AN, and z% ester, with aniline points of a, b, and c, respectively would be approximately:
x/100*a + y/100*b + z/100*b
Of course x + y + z = 100
Plug values into the equations and see if you get the aniline point values of the 3 Mobil oils above. Of course all measurements have some error, so keep that in mind. Approximate aniline point values for typical PAO, AN, and ester are: 125 C, 94 C, and 0 C. If you want to assume Group III instead of PAO, use aniline point of 121 C, which is almost the same as for PAO.
Conversion from degrees F to degrees C is: C = 5/9*(F-32)


Well, if PAO and GIII are so in near values as temperatures for aniline points, and Ester don´t add, it´s a very hard job to find the base components using just aniline points and oxidation, IMO.

 

[Tom NJ]

There are three ways to reasonably know the basestock PAO/ester/mineral oil ratios in a motor oil:

1. Ask the manufacturer (good luck)
2. Break into their laboratory and steal their formulations (good luck)
3. Run a gas chromatogram

Making estimates from physical properties such as aniline points, densities, and C=O absorbance without knowing which PAOs, which esters, and which additives are used may be a fun exercise, but borders on folly and obsession.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Well put, Tom.
Can't help but sense the general theme of some posters 'wanting to believe' that Redline is compositionally no different than their favourite big name synthetics.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
There are three ways to reasonably know the basestock PAO/ester/mineral oil ratios in a motor oil:

1. Ask the manufacturer (good luck)


ding ding ding, Redline doesn't seam to care about guarding their secrets like other companies, why? because revealing the formula is a good marketing point, as where asking most other companies the reply would be unremarkable. Currently there is no competition other then maybe Motul because nobody is paying the extra cost for those base oils like these folks. Try emailing Dave at Redline, he has been very upfront with the members of another forum doing work on hemi tick. In fact we have never got the it is "proprietary" response. If you have a question about redline, ask Dave from redline, you will be pleasantly surprised at the response.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Well put, Tom.
Can't help but sense the general theme of some posters 'wanting to believe' that Redline is compositionally no different than their favourite big name synthetics.


And of course the opposite as well, hence the clash IMHO.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Making estimates from physical properties such as aniline points, densities, and C=O absorbance without knowing which PAOs, which esters, and which additives are used may be a fun exercise, but borders on folly and obsession.

The accuracy of the estimates is a function of how well the assumptions match the unknowable reality. The assumptions are stated, and the result is a function of the assumptions. It is a “if this, then that” process. The one making the estimates needs to be aware that the estimate is an estimate, which differs from the actual value. Discussing the accuracy of the estimate is something that should be done. Whether or not one wants to make estimates should not be criticized. Different strokes for different folks. Some people would rather not delve into such matters and others like to. It is not folly to make an estimate when the methods and assumptions are stated. Such things are done every day in the scientific and engineering communities. Bordering on obsession means bordering on having an unhealthy psychological/behavioral problem. That is quite the inaccurate and unfair accusation to make.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Hammehead
Originally Posted By: JAG
I strongly suspect that aniline point of a mixture of x% PAO or Group III , y% AN, and z% ester, with aniline points of a, b, and c, respectively would be approximately:
x/100*a + y/100*b + z/100*b
Of course x + y + z = 100
Plug values into the equations and see if you get the aniline point values of the 3 Mobil oils above. Of course all measurements have some error, so keep that in mind. Approximate aniline point values for typical PAO, AN, and ester are: 125 C, 94 C, and 0 C. If you want to assume Group III instead of PAO, use aniline point of 121 C, which is almost the same as for PAO.
Conversion from degrees F to degrees C is: C = 5/9*(F-32)


Well, if PAO and GIII are so in near values as temperatures for aniline points, and Ester don´t add, it´s a very hard job to find the base components using just aniline points and oxidation, IMO.

Indeed. If you ever taken certain math classes, particularly linear algebra, you may recall that in some problems, there is not a unique solution (there are many solutions) because there are more unknowns than equations. In this particular problem, given specific aniline points for the three fluids, we have 3 unknowns (x,y,z) and 2 equations. To get a particular aniline point of the mixture, you have to pick particular values of x,y, and z such that x + y + z = 100. Of course, changing the aniline points of the multiple fluids changes the aniline point of the mixture for all combinations of x,y,and z.

 

[Hammehead]

Sure. But your exercise could be described as:

3 unknowables - whose sum would give 100. And that can be described by the formula below:

an estimate(x) + an estimate + an rougly estimate(if it is indeed ¨z¨) + maybe 0 = would be an estimate 100 or, a hundred millions of other possible numbers.
^
Is that some kind of quantum linear algebra?