Redline 50-70% PAO updated safety data sheets

[Tom NJ]

The oxidation number only measures carbonyl groups (C=O). While esters contain carbonyl groups, one cannot calculate the percentage of ester in a PCMO formulation from the oxidation number unless the type of ester(s) are known as well as all other carbonyl containing components in the additives. There are scores of different esters available, and the esters I have seen used in motor oils range from 132 to 318 in the ratio of molecular weight to number of carbonyl groups.

A higher than typical oxidation number in motor oils likely indicates the use of ester base oils, especially if the marketer claims so, but the amount is just guess work.

 

[OVERKILL]

The oxidation number only measures carbonyl groups (C=O). One cannot calculate the percentage of ester in a PCMO formulation from the oxidation number unless the type of ester(s) are known as well as all other carbonyl containing components in the additives. There are scores of different esters available, and the esters I have seen used in motor oils range from 132 to 318 in the ratio of molecular weight to number of carbonyl groups.

A higher than typical oxidation number in motor oils likely indicates the use of ester base oils, especially if the marketer claims so, but the amount is just guess work.

Thank you, that was my understanding based on our previous discussion on this. It's a tell, like a low pour point can indicate PAO in the base oil blend, but how much is not something you are going to be able to determine.

 

[buster]

I sent RL an email to see if I could get them to state in writing (highly unlikely). I personally don't care or use RL, but Dave did say in the 40% range. So, it's either that, or he gave me false information. I will post their response.

 

[The Critic]

View attachment 117797
I'll believe 2300ppm Zinc when I see it.

RL confirmed it was a misprint.

 

[Tom NJ]

It's a tell, like a low pour point can indicate PAO in the base oil blend, but how much is not something you are going to be able to determine.

Exactly. One problem with pour points and flash points taken from data sheets is we don't know if the manufacturer is being cautious by listing the worse case figure from their specification, or the best case figure from their batch data, or incorporating test reproducibility to their favor, or using the mean figure, or the average figure. And whether the person selecting the figure knows the difference. Throw in the test variance and batch-to-batch variations and estimating the base oil composition from these published numbers is more guess work than science.

While a -54°C pour point on a data sheet looks like a very low number and may indicate a high PAO content, it is also possible when employing the above methods that the that "typical" -54°C pour point is actually an average -44°C pour point. I'd like to think that the major oil companies use actual batch averages, and hopefully they do, but it really depends to some degree on the skill and attitude of the person deciding what figures to put on the data sheet.

 

[aquariuscsm]

If Redline is a pao based oil, then they need to change their verbiage to it being advertised as a “pao based oil”. Because don’t most (or some, like M1) synthetics have a dash of ester in them?

 

[buster]

If Redline is a pao based oil, then they need to change their verbiage to it being advertised as a “pao based oil”. Because don’t most (or some, like M1) synthetics have a dash of ester in them?

I suspect RL is using considerably more ester than most, but it remains anyone's guess really.

I remain intrigued why RL's (Abs/Cm) is significantly higher than any other oil I've seen through thousands of VOA's and is on par with the 50% POE Valvoline Premium Blue Restore oil.

I'd love to get an answer from RL but I'm not counting on it.

 

[The Critic]

If Redline is a pao based oil, then they need to change their verbiage to it being advertised as a “pao based oil”. Because don’t most (or some, like M1) synthetics have a dash of ester in them?

The marketing has to be relevant to your audience. Average WM customer won't know what Esters are, but average Redline customer may?

 

[Revving2Redline]

I still wouldn't hesitate to use it, or HPL. With the cost of everything going up I am sure the market that they gravitate to expects a certain amount of material as road racing and such demand it. They aren't going out in left field to lose their base market.

 

[spiderbypass]

I posted this a few months back when I noticed Redline’s brochure did not match the product data sheets on the website. Dave mentioned the brochure the more up to date information and wonder if it is matched by the newer safety data sheets. Here is a link to the post on here and within the post is the newest brochure.

Redline Oil Updated Data Sheets

I was looking up redline oil and a 25 page Brochure came up that was dated December 2021. I looked at the high performance motor oil data and they were different from data provided on web page. At a glance all noack numbers were notably lower at 4. Will try and attach the link...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[spiderbypass]

Here is also a link to the brochure if you don’t feel like reading the post with this link.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/RLO_CATALOG_2021.pdf

 

[nthach]

What if the "base oil" is majority ester? Kinda like paint being 100 percent acrylic but it doesn't mean the whole gallon consists of only acrylic making up the 100 percent but has pigment,binders,Ti02,soap,etc?

Behr and Glidden are the worst offenders for that. And they surfactant bleed the easiest in humid environments.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Behr and Glidden are the worst offenders for that. And they surfactant bleed the easiest in humid environments.

Sounds like they're lacking with binders and fillers and Cobalt. Consumer reports used to always rate their paint so well at the home Depot but cost was their big thing. You get what you pay for that's why I've always liked the two high-end paints from Pittsburgh and the regal from Benjamin Moore and Sherwin-Williams with the cashmere and the duration exterior

 

[nthach]

Sounds like they're lacking with binders and fillers and Cobalt. Consumer reports used to always rate their paint so well at the home Depot but cost was their big thing. You get what you pay for that's why I've always liked the two high-end paints from Pittsburgh and the regal from Benjamin Moore and Sherwin-Williams with the cashmere and the duration exterior

The price difference between BM and Behr is a wash, as off-topic this is. CR does weigh in cost as a factor - the typical CR reader is price-driven and wants to get “bang for the buck”.

I was at the local Carquest and saw plenty of “new” Red Line with the high-ZDDP/ester claim. I also seem to recall Nissan was selling a “Ester Motor Oil” and wanted it used on the 3x0Z, Infiniti G/Q50/Q60 and GT-R for dealer service.

 

[The Critic]

I also seem to recall Nissan was selling a “Ester Motor Oil” and wanted it used on the 3x0Z, Infiniti G/Q50/Q60 and GT-R for dealer service.

Q60 3.0t gets 0W20, GT-R gets 0W40, everything else gets bulk conventional 5W30.

 

[buster]

No response as expected on this. Being the Abs/cm figure doesn't tell us much it remains unknown. It's certainly majority PAO. I'd like to know just how much POE they use out of curiosity simply because they have always positioned themselves as an ester based synthetic oil.

 

[Revving2Redline]

The price difference between BM and Behr is a wash, as off-topic this is. CR does weigh in cost as a factor - the typical CR reader is price-driven and wants to get “bang for the buck”.

I was at the local Carquest and saw plenty of “new” Red Line with the high-ZDDP/ester claim. I also seem to recall Nissan was selling a “Ester Motor Oil” and wanted it used on the 3x0Z, Infiniti G/Q50/Q60 and GT-R for dealer service.

Yeah I believe that Ester oil was made by motul. Most people were just going to use redline oil instead. That was kind of a gimmick oil by Nissan.

 

[nthach]

Yeah I believe that Ester oil was made by motul. Most people were just going to use redline oil instead. That was kind of a gimmick oil by Nissan.

Another unicorn oil - and I used it, Valvoline
Premium Blue Restore. From I recall reading here, it has a very healthy shot of ester, it was intended to clean the ring packs of the Cummins ISX15. @High Performance Lubricants EC Concentrate works on a similar principle of a wholly ester base and a HDEO add pack to clean over time vs. the “shock & awe” approach of OTC diesel/kerosene based engine flushes and BG EPR109.

 

[buster]

Another unicorn oil - and I used it, Valvoline
Premium Blue Restore. From I recall reading here, it has a very healthy shot of ester, it was intended to clean the ring packs of the Cummins ISX15. @High Performance Lubricants EC Concentrate works on a similar principle of a wholly ester base and a HDEO add pack to clean over time vs. the “shock & awe” approach of OTC diesel/kerosene based engine flushes and BG EPR109.

Yes and it's 50% POE with a virgin oxidation figure of 110. Oddly enough, only Redline shows an oxidation figure that high as most Redline viscosities range from 90-129. That is what made me curious about the Abs/Cm figure. However the virgin oxidation figure doesn't tell how much ester is being used.

Every other brand shows an oxidation figure of <50 and in most cases <10.

 

[CleverUserName]

Yes and it's 50% POE with a virgin oxidation figure of 110. Oddly enough, only Redline shows an oxidation figure that high as most Redline viscosities range from 90-129. That is what made me curious about the Abs/Cm figure. However the virgin oxidation figure doesn't tell how much ester is being used.

Every other brand shows an oxidation figure of

Not every other brand.

My RLI virgin samples tested at 80-85 for oxidation value by Polaris.