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Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? #4729107
04/16/18 05:41 PM
04/16/18 05:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 656
sonoma
burla Offline OP
burla  Offline OP

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 656
sonoma
With the movement of the market towards DI Turbo's and other engines that are much more susceptible to contamination, is it ethical to be marketing annual protection type oils that promise very long OCI's considering damage may occur in many of the vehicles if people believe that interval? User Beware? The eco boost max interval is 7500 and the "Intelligent" OLM or IOLM actually can move someone lower then that Max oci of 7500. What good is having a 20-25k oil if the manu wants that oil changed at 7500 and down? Is the 25k mile interval a bigger myth then the 3k mile interval?

Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729111
04/16/18 05:50 PM
04/16/18 05:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,202
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,202
Campbellsville, KY
I don't see all that much difference in an unsuspecting consumer falling for the labeling on a bottle of M1 Annual Protection vs. believing it necessary to follow the 3K/3 month numbers on the sticker Valvoline Instant Oil Change puts on the windshield of their 4 cyl. Accord.


To quote a friend, "Synthetics, man."

'85 GMC C3500, 454, 132K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 173K (totaled 2018, in rehab)
'85 Mercedes 300TD, OM617 turbo, 217K (wife's)
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729125
04/16/18 06:01 PM
04/16/18 06:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,388
Ohio
hallstevenson Offline
hallstevenson  Offline

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,388
Ohio
Any company that market's oil change intervals beyond fairly 'normal' mileage (for the sake of this post, let's say 10,000 miles and higher) will dictate - typically in their fine print - what conditions they base this on. They will also have done research, testing, etc that makes their claim valid, based on certain conditions. It's fine by me....

Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729129
04/16/18 06:05 PM
04/16/18 06:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,180
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,180
Texas
We have covered this most cars on the road are not under warranty just Google average age of vehicles on the road only one in my signature under warranty

Mobil selected DI and TDI cars for testing

we have users going 10k on cheap dino
Guy just posted 17k on Mobil 1 AFE thats not EP or AP

Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729133
04/16/18 06:07 PM
04/16/18 06:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,475
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,475
OH
Horses for courses.
With my PI NA '12 Accord as I use it, 10-12K would be table limits per the IOLM but a much longer drain interval might well be possible with an oil sufficiently able to avoid shear and oxidation for that interval.
The problems many associate with oil in TGDI engines have nothing to do with the oil used and everything to do with the design and PCM tuning as delivered.
There is no question of ethics in OCI recommendations, there is only the condition of the oil after its been run for a given interval. Most punters aren't going to do their own changes anyway and those who do usually have some grasp of what's likely to work as well as what isn't wrt OCIs, oil used and the engine it's used in as well as how that engine is used.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729139
04/16/18 06:14 PM
04/16/18 06:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 656
sonoma
burla Offline OP
burla  Offline OP

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 656
sonoma
There is a discrepancy what the vehicle manufacturer wants versus the oil manufacturers. Ford lowered the oci from the 7500 on it's older vehicles to 5k miles, vehicles that are long out or warranty- pre 2008. I don't doubt the condition of the oil, but the condition of the detergents, and it seams vehicle manu's are thinking along the same lines.

Ford recommends 5k mile interval on old vehicles, 7500 on new ones.

Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729152
04/16/18 06:24 PM
04/16/18 06:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,867
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,867
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: burla
With the movement of the market towards DI Turbo's and other engines that are much more susceptible to contamination, is it ethical to be marketing annual protection type oils that promise very long OCI's considering damage may occur in many of the vehicles if people believe that interval? User Beware?

It really depends on the application, of course. Note that one does have to exhibit caution. Now, if an oil company wants to advertise an oil for 20,000 mile intervals under all circumstances and stand behind that, all the power to them. Of course, it's not easy for the average consumer to understand their OCIs and what's involved with the specifications called for in their vehicle, much less the variety available on the market.

A 25,000 mile interval is certainly attainable with the right application, right oil, right sump capacity, and right driving conditions. One size fits all is problematic, though.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: Garak] #4729163
04/16/18 06:37 PM
04/16/18 06:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,180
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,180
Texas
I find it interesting there has been so much said about the 20k and one year when thousands of users (like me) run M1 EP for half of its 15k potential Im paying $5 more to use in an expensive SUV

The other part I find interesting is that AP is not selling so not much to worry about to start with
At some price I might buy AP = but not for running 20k

The big numbers are mainly Amsoil guys with bypass filters just keep on keeping on
So whats the limit? TBN? 30 cut to 20? Thats even been challenged here...

Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729207
04/16/18 07:14 PM
04/16/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,530
VW Fanboy Island
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,530
VW Fanboy Island
I posted that CBC Marketplace OCI vid on here a few weeks ago. Normies are reading BITOG or buying more long oci euro cars. The info is leaking into the public consciousness because everyone is skeptical of the auto repair industry because they pull garbage like a 3k OCI on a car that sees 95% highway miles.

Here in Toronto, long distance commuting has increased with housing prices. More and more people are not only driving more highway miles, but also trying to cut commuting costs. Needlessly short OCIs on a car that is going see easy highway miles could probably save you a lot if you really racked up the miles.


03 Jetta AWP/09A 205k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729224
04/16/18 07:33 PM
04/16/18 07:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,206
US-WA
Dyusik Offline
Dyusik  Offline

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,206
US-WA
Ethics in marketing crackmeup


95 Cherokee 190K DELO 10W30, XG8
07 IS250 106K STP syn HM 10w30, FULL
04 YZF-R1 19K DELO 15w40, XG7317
99 HD XL1200S 21K VR1 20w50, NG1515
14 RX450h 40k Idemitsu 0w20, 57047
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729266
04/16/18 08:07 PM
04/16/18 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,800
New England
gathermewool Offline
gathermewool  Offline

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,800
New England
Originally Posted By: burla
There is a discrepancy what the vehicle manufacturer wants versus the oil manufacturers. Ford lowered the oci from the 7500 on it's older vehicles to 5k miles, vehicles that are long out or warranty- pre 2008. I don't doubt the condition of the oil, but the condition of the detergents, and it seams vehicle manu's are thinking along the same lines.

Ford recommends 5k mile interval on old vehicles, 7500 on new ones.



Has there been a UOA showing a depleted detergent package?

Low TBN, sure.

Low flash point and/or excessive fuel dilution, sure.

Viscosity shearing down out of grade, sure.


'14 Forester XT FA20DIT (Cobb Stage 1)
Edge 0W-40 + FU filter (64,774 miles)
'15 Legacy FB25 (OEM Stage, uh, neg. 7?)
Edge 0W-20 + FU filter (40,803 miles)
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729289
04/16/18 08:24 PM
04/16/18 08:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,297
Canyon County Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,297
Canyon County Idaho
Amsoil has been marketing its oil since around 1972 for 25,000 mils or 1 year and around that time Mobil ! was a 25,000 mile one year oil as well. Als Neo and All Proof were high mile oils as well


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: 4WD] #4729294
04/16/18 08:25 PM
04/16/18 08:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,297
Canyon County Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,297
Canyon County Idaho
Originally Posted By: 4WD
I find it interesting there has been so much said about the 20k and one year when thousands of users (like me) run M1 EP for half of its 15k potential Im paying $5 more to use in an expensive SUV

The other part I find interesting is that AP is not selling so not much to worry about to start with
At some price I might buy AP = but not for running 20k

The big numbers are mainly Amsoil guys with bypass filters just keep on keeping on
So whats the limit? TBN? 30 cut to 20? Thats even been challenged here...
Ep is not a better oil for the 5 dollars it just is marketed to last longer.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla] #4729301
04/16/18 08:28 PM
04/16/18 08:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 8,200
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 8,200
...
In the end its up to the individual to make the decision what to buy.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: 4WD] #4729387
04/16/18 09:28 PM
04/16/18 09:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,867
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,867
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: 4WD
The big numbers are mainly Amsoil guys with bypass filters just keep on keeping on
So whats the limit? TBN? 30 cut to 20? Thats even been challenged here...

Yes, there is precedent, and it certainly has the potential to be done safely. Of course, as you point out, many people are buying M1 EP, AP, Amsoil SS, and so forth without really extending their OCIs. And, some have extended OCIs by nature of the vehicle and an A3/B4 oil with a European OEM spec.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
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