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#4729107 - 04/16/18 05:41 PM Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles?
burla Offline


Registered: 11/07/16
Posts: 169
Loc: sonoma
With the movement of the market towards DI Turbo's and other engines that are much more susceptible to contamination, is it ethical to be marketing annual protection type oils that promise very long OCI's considering damage may occur in many of the vehicles if people believe that interval? User Beware? The eco boost max interval is 7500 and the "Intelligent" OLM or IOLM actually can move someone lower then that Max oci of 7500. What good is having a 20-25k oil if the manu wants that oil changed at 7500 and down? Is the 25k mile interval a bigger myth then the 3k mile interval?

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#4729111 - 04/16/18 05:50 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
Alex_V Offline


Registered: 04/10/16
Posts: 1118
Loc: Campbellsville, KY
I don't see all that much difference in an unsuspecting consumer falling for the labeling on a bottle of M1 Annual Protection vs. believing it necessary to follow the 3K/3 month numbers on the sticker Valvoline Instant Oil Change puts on the windshield of their 4 cyl. Accord.
_________________________
I like Chevy and Valvoline.

'13 Cruze, 1.4T, 110K
'85 GMC C3500, 454, 130K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 165K
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K

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#4729125 - 04/16/18 06:01 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
hallstevenson Offline


Registered: 04/25/17
Posts: 183
Loc: Ohio
Any company that market's oil change intervals beyond fairly 'normal' mileage (for the sake of this post, let's say 10,000 miles and higher) will dictate - typically in their fine print - what conditions they base this on. They will also have done research, testing, etc that makes their claim valid, based on certain conditions. It's fine by me....

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#4729129 - 04/16/18 06:05 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6027
Loc: Texas/International
We have covered this … most cars on the road are not under warranty … just Google average age of vehicles on the road …only one in my signature under warranty

Mobil selected DI and TDI cars for testing …

we have users going 10k on cheap dino …
Guy just posted 17k on Mobil 1 AFE … that’s not EP or AP …
_________________________
2017 Tahoe 5.3L 4WD
2014 Fusion Hybrid
2013 Cruze RS 1.4T
2010 Canyon 5.3L 4WD

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#4729133 - 04/16/18 06:07 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15439
Loc: OH
Horses for courses.
With my PI NA '12 Accord as I use it, 10-12K would be table limits per the IOLM but a much longer drain interval might well be possible with an oil sufficiently able to avoid shear and oxidation for that interval.
The problems many associate with oil in TGDI engines have nothing to do with the oil used and everything to do with the design and PCM tuning as delivered.
There is no question of ethics in OCI recommendations, there is only the condition of the oil after its been run for a given interval. Most punters aren't going to do their own changes anyway and those who do usually have some grasp of what's likely to work as well as what isn't wrt OCIs, oil used and the engine it's used in as well as how that engine is used.
_________________________
17 Forester 12K MSS 0W-20
12 Accord LX 86K PP 5W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
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96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i

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#4729139 - 04/16/18 06:14 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
burla Offline


Registered: 11/07/16
Posts: 169
Loc: sonoma
There is a discrepancy what the vehicle manufacturer wants versus the oil manufacturers. Ford lowered the oci from the 7500 on it's older vehicles to 5k miles, vehicles that are long out or warranty- pre 2008. I don't doubt the condition of the oil, but the condition of the detergents, and it seams vehicle manu's are thinking along the same lines.

Ford recommends 5k mile interval on old vehicles, 7500 on new ones.

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#4729152 - 04/16/18 06:24 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24064
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: burla
With the movement of the market towards DI Turbo's and other engines that are much more susceptible to contamination, is it ethical to be marketing annual protection type oils that promise very long OCI's considering damage may occur in many of the vehicles if people believe that interval? User Beware?

It really depends on the application, of course. Note that one does have to exhibit caution. Now, if an oil company wants to advertise an oil for 20,000 mile intervals under all circumstances and stand behind that, all the power to them. Of course, it's not easy for the average consumer to understand their OCIs and what's involved with the specifications called for in their vehicle, much less the variety available on the market.

A 25,000 mile interval is certainly attainable with the right application, right oil, right sump capacity, and right driving conditions. One size fits all is problematic, though.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4729163 - 04/16/18 06:37 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: Garak]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6027
Loc: Texas/International
I find it interesting there has been so much said about the 20k and one year … when thousands of users (like me) run M1 EP for half of it’s 15k potential … I’m paying $5 more to use in an expensive SUV …

The other part I find interesting is that AP is not selling … so not much to worry about to start with …
At some price I might buy AP = but not for running 20k …

The big numbers are mainly Amsoil … guys with bypass filters just keep on keeping on …
So what’s the limit? TBN? 30 cut to 20? That’s even been challenged here...
_________________________
2017 Tahoe 5.3L 4WD
2014 Fusion Hybrid
2013 Cruze RS 1.4T
2010 Canyon 5.3L 4WD

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#4729207 - 04/16/18 07:14 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
maxdustington Offline


Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 234
Loc: Toronna
I posted that CBC Marketplace OCI vid on here a few weeks ago. Normies are reading BITOG or buying more long oci euro cars. The info is leaking into the public consciousness because everyone is skeptical of the auto repair industry because they pull garbage like a 3k OCI on a car that sees 95% highway miles.

Here in Toronto, long distance commuting has increased with housing prices. More and more people are not only driving more highway miles, but also trying to cut commuting costs. Needlessly short OCIs on a car that is going see easy highway miles could probably save you a lot if you really racked up the miles.
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03 Jetta AWP/09A 200k kms

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#4729224 - 04/16/18 07:33 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
Dyusik Offline


Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 1869
Loc: US-WA
Ethics in marketing crackmeup
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95 Cherokee 190K DELO 10W30,XG8
07 IS250 96K FB ?w??,FULL
04 YZF-R1 18K DELO 15w40,XG7317
99 HD XL1200S 18K 76 20w50,1515
14 RX450h 30k PP 0w20,NAPAG

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#4729266 - 04/16/18 08:07 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
gathermewool Offline


Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 5886
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: burla
There is a discrepancy what the vehicle manufacturer wants versus the oil manufacturers. Ford lowered the oci from the 7500 on it's older vehicles to 5k miles, vehicles that are long out or warranty- pre 2008. I don't doubt the condition of the oil, but the condition of the detergents, and it seams vehicle manu's are thinking along the same lines.

Ford recommends 5k mile interval on old vehicles, 7500 on new ones.



Has there been a UOA showing a depleted detergent package?

Low TBN, sure.

Low flash point and/or excessive fuel dilution, sure.

Viscosity shearing down out of grade, sure.
_________________________
14 Forester XT Touring w/ Eyesight (her)
Castrol Edge 0W-40 + Fram Ultra (FU) filter
15 Legacy Premium w/ Eyesight (me)
Edge 0W-20 + Subie blue filter

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#4729289 - 04/16/18 08:24 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 10565
Loc: Idaho
Amsoil has been marketing its oil since around 1972 for 25,000 mils or 1 year and around that time Mobil ! was a 25,000 mile one year oil as well. Als Neo and All Proof were high mile oils as well
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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity, we shall prevail

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#4729294 - 04/16/18 08:25 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: 4WD]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 10565
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: 4WD
I find it interesting there has been so much said about the 20k and one year … when thousands of users (like me) run M1 EP for half of it’s 15k potential … I’m paying $5 more to use in an expensive SUV …

The other part I find interesting is that AP is not selling … so not much to worry about to start with …
At some price I might buy AP = but not for running 20k …

The big numbers are mainly Amsoil … guys with bypass filters just keep on keeping on …
So what’s the limit? TBN? 30 cut to 20? That’s even been challenged here...
Ep is not a better oil for the 5 dollars it just is marketed to last longer.
_________________________
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity, we shall prevail

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#4729301 - 04/16/18 08:28 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: burla]
PimTac Online   content


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 3492
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
In the end it’s up to the individual to make the decision what to buy.
_________________________
2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter


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#4729387 - 04/16/18 09:28 PM Re: Is it Ethical to market oils past 20k miles? [Re: 4WD]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24064
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: 4WD
The big numbers are mainly Amsoil … guys with bypass filters just keep on keeping on …
So what’s the limit? TBN? 30 cut to 20? That’s even been challenged here...

Yes, there is precedent, and it certainly has the potential to be done safely. Of course, as you point out, many people are buying M1 EP, AP, Amsoil SS, and so forth without really extending their OCIs. And, some have extended OCIs by nature of the vehicle and an A3/B4 oil with a European OEM spec.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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