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#4706915 - 03/25/18 09:26 PM "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers"
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8998
Loc: Southeast Florida
"Enough With The Lies Electric Cars Are Far Greener Than Gas Cars #Basta"

http://flip.it/tptC1P
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#4706921 - 03/25/18 09:29 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
PimTac Online   content


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4630
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Italian link? Nope.
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#4706927 - 03/25/18 09:32 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
AZjeff Online   content


Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 2735
Loc: PV Az
Yesterday I was leaving a store, ahead of me was a BMW i3, coming into the lot was a Tesla 3, followed by a Hummer H2! The times they are a changin'...
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#4706934 - 03/25/18 09:36 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41896
Loc: New Jersey
I generally believe the premise that well to wheels is better for ev on an energy basis, because single large scale power generation offers thermal efficiency and pollution mitigation benefits, even if from coal.

I'm not as sold on the energy density claims. It is not good to charge too fast. And batteries have poor density compared to liquid fuels.

Which is why I'm pro HEV and PHEV, anti-EV.

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#4706939 - 03/25/18 09:39 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 19319
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
One mans opinion vs another. I like EV but realistically the infrastructure in many areas cannot support a majority of them.
Look at these roads, they cant even afford (so they claim) to fix the holes never mind repave, if anyone thinks they can modernize the electric grid they are living in la la land.

https://www.citylab.com/environment/2015...as-cars/397136/
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#4706942 - 03/25/18 09:42 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: PimTac]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8998
Loc: Southeast Florida
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Italian link? Nope.


It isn't an Italian website. "Flip-it" is a constant, realtime newsfeed for Android users.
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#4706943 - 03/25/18 09:42 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
Snagglefoot Offline


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1909
Loc: SE British Columbia, Canada
To me the advance will be much slower than the writers make out. The Tesla geeks will get their Model 3 and then sales will drop to a much lower level.

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#4706961 - 03/25/18 10:02 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
PimTac Online   content


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4630
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Italian link? Nope.


It isn't an Italian website. "Flip-it" is a constant, realtime newsfeed for Android users.


Ah I see. I was redirected on the iPhone.
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#4706966 - 03/25/18 10:08 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
oil_film_movies Offline


Registered: 06/13/16
Posts: 2634
Loc: MN
How clean an EV is really depends on how much coal is burned to get the kWH (or BTU, joules, whatever energy units you want) of electricity.
California has very clean electricity, where only about 4% is from coal.
Colorado, by contrast, has 55% from coal, I think the worst in the U.S.

Interesting how China is very dirty, with 72% of their electricity from coal, making it not a great idea to run an EV in China!
France generates very clean electricity, using nuclear at 72%, so an EV is awesome in France.

Natural gas burning has about half the carbon footprint as burning coal (per energy unit), so its better to use.

Bottom line: Get away from coal, and EV's look cleaner and cleaner.....

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#4707019 - 03/25/18 10:44 PM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
AZjeff Online   content


Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 2735
Loc: PV Az
Interesting. For some EVs are all about saving the planet, for others they're about saving money, with saving the planet a bonus. In a month I'm going to start a 70 mile round-trip commute and have been looking at vehicle options, with the RAV getting 30-32 mpg and paid for none of the EV variants make economic sense in a reasonable time frame at current gas prices.

Would you green guys drive an EV if the operating costs are the same but the carbon footprint is notably less?
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#4707065 - 03/26/18 12:27 AM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: AZjeff]
CKN Offline


Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 3768
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Interesting. For some EVs are all about saving the planet, for others they're about saving money, with saving the planet a bonus. In a month I'm going to start a 70 mile round-trip commute and have been looking at vehicle options, with the RAV getting 30-32 mpg and paid for none of the EV variants make economic sense in a reasonable time frame at current gas prices.

Would you green guys drive an EV if the operating costs are the same but the carbon footprint is notably less?



It doesn't make sense because you current vehicle gets fairly decent gas millage and it's paid for. So-you are going to use (roughly) 4 gallons a gas a day. However-there was someone on another thread who stated he was leasing a BMW i3 for a 105.00 a month.

here is an example-
https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/lease-a-b...d-for-may/11153

However-I'm not sure what the yearly millage allowance is-or what incentives are available where you live.


Edited by CKN (03/26/18 12:29 AM)

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#4707131 - 03/26/18 05:58 AM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 2023
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
As EVs gain in popularity, how long before local and state govts look at revenue lost in gasoline taxes?
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#4707170 - 03/26/18 07:04 AM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: wemay]
HoosierJeeper Offline


Registered: 11/23/16
Posts: 1276
Loc: WI
Exactly...they're skirting those taxes. They're using the roads just as much but not paying to help maintain them.
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#4707174 - 03/26/18 07:09 AM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: Danno]
SOHCman Offline


Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 1329
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Danno
As EVs gain in popularity, how long before local and state govts look at revenue lost in gasoline taxes?


That's how it always works isn't it, they have already put in that "hybrid tax" to make up for hybrid drivers not paying their fair share of gas taxes. It's only a matter of time.

I personally have no interest in driving a coal powered car, and I don't think we can actually call Nuclear "clean" since we are left with the toxic waste. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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#4707223 - 03/26/18 08:12 AM Re: "EV naysayers are getting smaller in numbers" [Re: AZjeff]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41896
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Interesting. For some EVs are all about saving the planet, for others they're about saving money, with saving the planet a bonus. In a month I'm going to start a 70 mile round-trip commute and have been looking at vehicle options, with the RAV getting 30-32 mpg and paid for none of the EV variants make economic sense in a reasonable time frame at current gas prices.

Would you green guys drive an EV if the operating costs are the same but the carbon footprint is notably less?


If I had to commute 70 miles a day, Id consider 30-32 MPG pretty lousy, even at current gas prices. Others may have different opinions.

Assuming gas is $2.50/gal, the difference between 30 and 45 MPG driven 70 mi daily for 50 weeks per year is just under $500, FWIW. Its true that as vehicles do better and better on fuel, the benefits are diminishing, and especially if a vehicle is paid off, it makes zero sense to change until the time comes. However, long-haul driving isnt necessarily the target of EVs for certain, and while PHEV and HEVs do well in those conditions, the reality goes back to energy density and using the fuel.

But add in traffic, stop and go, etc., and 30-32 falls quick, while the HEV rises rapidly.

Which is precisely why there is no one size fits all, and why pure EVs make no sense unless they at least have a small coupled genset (e.g. the BMW i3 if it was implemented properly and not hindered by the US laws), and even then are questionable!




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