Redline base oils

[JAG]

Since I mentioned the aniline point tests that I had done around year 2005, I found the results and they are below. I mis-remembered when I said above that German Castrol was tested.

M1 TDT was of CI-4+ formulation. All 3 oils were Mobil 1.
Aniline measurements:

5W-40 TDT (Turbo Diesel Truck): 276F
0W-40: 254F
10W-30 High Mileage: 248F

For comparison, Mobil's SpectraSyn Plus PAO of 6 cst viscosity has an aniline point of 257F (125C).
https://www.tri-iso.com/documents/exxonmobil_chemical_spectrasyn_plus_Brochure.pdf

Slide 7 in the following document shows where different base oils fall on the aniline point result range:
https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG...pplications.pdf
Esters are shown down around 32F (0C).

My conclusion about the polarity of the base oil mixtures in the Mobil 1 oils tested. They were all very low in polarity.

 

[bulwnkl]

Okay, I haven’t been here or to look around the Russian site since I last posted, but it looks like you’ve been digging some, JAG. I found a GC graph, perhaps the one I was thinking of, but it was not sourced from the Russian Oil Club site. Unfortunately I cannot share the graph I have.

It’s a shame to not be able to use the GC we have in the lab across the street for this. :-/

 

[Tom NJ]

Here is an example of a GC graph I found online, and the commentary about it I wrote in one of my old posts.



The GC curve shown is actually two separate chromatograms, one of pure PAO and the other of pure mineral oil, which have been laid over each other to show how the curves compare. Since the GC oven temperature is increased steadily over time, the X axis is representative of the oven temperature (increasing left to right) at which each peak elutes from the detector. Hence more volatile components come out first (left side) and less volatile peaks later (right side). The Y axis represents concentration, i.e. the quantity of each component (actually it is the area under the curve that correlates to quanity).

The PAO shown is a 4 cSt, which is generally >90% trimers of 1-decene (first group of PAO peaks at about 25 - 28 minutes) and the balance tetramers (second group at about 31 - 33 minutes). The trimers and tetramers are groups of peaks rather than a single sharp peak because each group contains numerous isomers. A GC of a 6 cSt PAO cut would show the same trimer and tetramer groups shown here, except that the two PAO groups would be about the same size, and some pentamers would begin to show. Obviously the claim that PAO molecules are all the same size is erroneous. The trimer groups are C30 while the tetramers are C40 and Pentamers are C50.

The mineral oil curve is a broad band of hundreds of peaks with the Gaussian distribution shape typical of a distillation cut. This mineral oil is listed as a VHVI, which could be Group II or Group III, and is likely the same viscosity as the PAO. Mineral oil has a much greater concentration of peaks that are more volatile than PAO (all those to the left of the PAO groups), and the total width of the mineral oil from start to finish is usually wider than most PAOs. While GC cannot readily distinguish among Groups I, II, and III, it is reasonable to assume that any mineral oil found in a product labeled "full synthetic" is Group III.

As I noted above, this GC curve is actually two separate chromatograms overlain for comparison. If you ran a GC on a mixture of PAO and mineral oil, the PAO groups would sit on top of the mineral oil curve and would be readily visible and measurable. This is why GC is the only accurate tool for measuring the percent of PAO in mineral oil, as well as other synthetic base oils in a mixture. Polyol ester chromatograms look radically different than either PAO or mineral oil and vary according to the type of POE, ranging from a single sharp peak to dozens of sharp peaks or some groups of isomers.

If one is familiar with the typical shapes of various base oils, GC allows you to look inside the oil and see what base oils it contains.

TomNJ/VA

 

[JAG]

Very interesting, Tom! That jogged my memory of seeing GC test results of a lot of different motor oils on a forum around 15 years ago. I think it was on vwvortex.com, but I looked for it and didn’t find it. Formulations have changed many times since then anyway. Thank you for posting that!

bulwinkl, it sounds like you aren’t free to share the GC graph here, but can you at least share it with just Tom?

 

[jongies3]

Is it just me, or is there a similar topic like this posted on a weekly basis as of late? Not trying to be a jerk but, just had to ask!

 

[PeterPolyol]

Come on Jong's, as if there is too much discussion of chromatography and technical details about base oils? These are the BEST threads around

Once again big thanks to all that have contributed to this and other interesting topics

 

[BrocLuno]

Well there are feel good users, and then there are curious minds who want some insight into what makes what work ...

 

[330indy]

I'm particularly interested, as I have been a Redline customer for many years....

 

[dailydriver]

^^^Same here.

I've always wondered if the 0W-xx Red Line products had significantly higher NOACK numbers than their 'tighter' viscosity (5W-xx) oils solely because of the necessary added VIIs, or also because they had to use more 'lighter end' POEs, (which already appear to be more volatile than other base stock oil groups according to the above posts, regardless of weight), and lighter PAOs, in those blends.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% polyolester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!


He has many video's out that say redline is PAO/Ester these days. Also, their 10w30 and 5w20 have zero Vii's also confirmed by Dave. I have done two uoa's the second a 2 year 10k mile test 5w20 that shows the visc at 100 slightly over what they say it is fresh, the same result as the first test. Those particular oils just wont shear down. We have seen some sheer in other redline uoa's.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
^^^Same here.

I've always wondered if the 0W-xx Red Line products had significantly higher NOACK numbers than their 'tighter' viscosity (5W-xx) oils solely because of the necessary added VIIs, or also because they had to use more 'lighter end' POEs, (which already appear to be more volatile than other base stock oil groups according to the above posts, regardless of weight), and lighter PAOs, in those blends.

For a given viscosity, POEs have much lower Noack volatility than PAOs and Groups I, II, and III.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
^^^Same here.

I've always wondered if the 0W-xx Red Line products had significantly higher NOACK numbers than their 'tighter' viscosity (5W-xx) oils solely because of the necessary added VIIs, or also because they had to use more 'lighter end' POEs, (which already appear to be more volatile than other base stock oil groups according to the above posts, regardless of weight), and lighter PAOs, in those blends.

For a given viscosity, POEs have much lower Noack volatility than PAOs and Groups I, II, and III.


That's exactly what I always thought, but the earlier posts in this thread had me a bit confused about this.
I guess I misinterpreted what was being claimed in those posts about the stated volatility numbers of the POE base stocks.

In reference to my above question; I will take for granted that the higher NOACK numbers of their 0W-xx oils IS ONLY because of the volatility of the added, necessary for the viscosity spread of those formulations, VIIs they use in them?

Or is there something else causing the climbing NOACKS in their 0Ws (and some of the other 'large spread' viscosites they offer)?

 

[1JZ_E46]

It’s also due to the lower overall basestocks used. The lighter you go, the higher the volatility. The 0W oils would be using a lighter blend of basestocks for cold performance with more VII to stay in grade at temp.

 

[JAG]

The Russian oil test site’s VOA oxidation values for some Redline 0W-x grades are considerably higher than some of the already high values in the other grades, likely indicating a higher ester percentage in the former. The 0W-x grades have higher volatility than their non-0W counterparts and I think that is due to the former having a less viscous base oil mixture. They have high enough VI (over 170) that I think can only be achieved by using VIIs, assuming typical PAO and POE base oils are used. I expect synthetic motor oils with no VIIs to have viscosity indeces of around 150 or less. Esters have a large range of possible VI and many have lower VI than they tend to be for PAOs.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver


That's exactly what I always thought, but the earlier posts in this thread had me a bit confused about this.
I guess I misinterpreted what was being claimed in those posts about the stated volatility numbers of the POE base stocks.


Just FYI, some typical Noack volatilities for pure base oils:

POE, 4 cSt = 6% (TMP type)
POE, 6 cSt = 3% (PE type)
POE, 8 cSt = 2% (PE type)
PAO, 4 cSt = 13%
PAO, 6 cSt = 6%
PAO, 8 cSt = 4%

Tom

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: JAG
The Russian oil test site’s VOA oxidation values for some Redline 0W-x grades are considerably higher than some of the already high values in the other grades, likely indicating a higher ester percentage in the former. The 0W-x grades have higher volatility than their non-0W counterparts and I think that is due to the former having a less viscous base oil mixture. They have high enough VI (over 170) that I think can only be achieved by using VIIs, assuming typical PAO and POE base oils are used. I expect synthetic motor oils with no VIIs to have viscosity indeces of around 150 or less. Esters have a large range of possible VI and many have lower VI than they tend to be for PAOs.


Am I looking at this ALL WRONG, i.e.; on that site, is a 'high' "oxidation value"/number indicative of a BETTER resistance to oxidation and a LOWER volatility rate?

I was taking that number to be the way a higher NOACK number means MORE volatility/oxidation than a lower one.

 

[JAG]

dailydriver: the oxidation value is proportional to the amount of oxygen atoms detected. Esters have oxygen atoms but so do some additives. Typical additive packages don’t have much oxygen atoms in them, so the test value can be used as a crude metric for how much ester content is in the oil. The test has nothing directly to do with volatility or resistance to oxidation. But if you do the test on virgin oil and then on the used oil, you can see how much the oxidation value increased to get an estimate for how much true oxidation occurred. The base oil and the additives can oxidize so with this test alone, you can’t separate out how much the base oil oxidized. Looking at the viscosity change along with how much fuel is in the oil (which would thin the oil) is a good way to see how much base oil oxidation occurred.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: JAG
dailydriver: the oxidation value is proportional to the amount of oxygen atoms detected. Esters have oxygen atoms but so do some additives. Typical additive packages don’t have much oxygen atoms in them, so the test value can be used as a crude metric for how much ester content is in the oil. The test has nothing directly to do with volatility or resistance to oxidation. But if you do the test on virgin oil and then on the used oil, you can see how much the oxidation value increased to get an estimate for how much true oxidation occurred. The base oil and the additives can oxidize so with this test alone, you can’t separate out how much the base oil oxidized. Looking at the viscosity change along with how much fuel is in the oil (which would thin the oil) is a good way to see how much base oil oxidation occurred.


THANK YOU!

That explains it totally!

 

[Bullwinkle007]

Originally Posted By: burla
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% polyolester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!


He has many video's out that say redline is PAO/Ester these days. Also, their 10w30 and 5w20 have zero Vii's also confirmed by Dave. I have done two uoa's the second a 2 year 10k mile test 5w20 that shows the visc at 100 slightly over what they say it is fresh, the same result as the first test. Those particular oils just wont shear down. We have seen some sheer in other redline uoa's.


And amsoil [censored] advertising graph shows Redline as junk oil.

 

[330indy]

Amsoil...... what?
[censored]