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forced crankcase ventalation #4663047
02/11/18 03:49 PM
02/11/18 03:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 232
KS
red7404 Offline OP
red7404  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 232
KS
would it be a good idea to use a small rotary air pump to suck crank case air out of the crank case. and NOT push air into the intake of the engine. but just dump the crank case air to the atmosphere. and DONT even talk about the environment, I am thinking out loud.

Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663049
02/11/18 03:51 PM
02/11/18 03:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
USA
Reddy45 Online shocked
Reddy45  Online Shocked
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
USA
Why forced though? The old school valve cover breathers worked fine right?

Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663052
02/11/18 03:55 PM
02/11/18 03:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,451
Indiana
dlundblad Offline
dlundblad  Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,451
Indiana
I don’t think we’d see a difference because it’d have to be a variable speed thing in tune with the engine. Too much or too little may cause seal failure.

With the “normal” way, you have the increased vacuum as the RPM’s increase.


03 Jeep WJ 4.0 200k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 177k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 149k Rotella T5 10w30 Supertech ST3980

Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663054
02/11/18 03:58 PM
02/11/18 03:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
A properly designed PCV system does exactly this.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663062
02/11/18 04:02 PM
02/11/18 04:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
Many race cars use a system like this:



"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663065
02/11/18 04:03 PM
02/11/18 04:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,916
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,916
MA, Mittelfranken.de
The movement of the piston does force air through the crankcase one way or another. LOL


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663078
02/11/18 04:09 PM
02/11/18 04:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
Olas Offline
Olas  Offline
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
A rotary pump would work but would also be electrical or mechanical load.

This device http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/25900/10002/-1 uses waste exhaust energy to perform the same function.


Cable ties should hold it
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663089
02/11/18 04:19 PM
02/11/18 04:19 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,381
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,381
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted By: red7404
would it be a good idea to use a small rotary air pump to suck crank case air out of the crank case. and NOT push air into the intake of the engine. but just dump the crank case air to the atmosphere. and DONT even talk about the environment, I am thinking out loud.


Yes. I have this on 4 vehicles now, although I do route back to the air intake, via the filter box. Neither air filter or intake tract ever get oily at all.

Crankcase emissions can smell. For some reason, Rotella oil stinks it up the worst by a large margin.

Quote:
Why forced though? The old school valve cover breathers worked fine right?


They don't circulate fresh air into the crankcase. I let a little bleed air come in through a filtered inlet, but the system still maintains 9" of vacuum at all times.

Quote:
I don’t think we’d see a difference because it’d have to be a variable speed thing in tune with the engine. Too much or too little may cause seal failure.

With the “normal” way, you have the increased vacuum as the RPM’s increase.


Only if the pump is belt driven. I use Ford electric emissions pumps.

Quote:
A properly designed PCV system does exactly this.


It doesn't. When the engine is under the most load, the crankcase gases increase, and the amount of vacuum decreases.

Quote:
A rotary pump would work but would also be electrical or mechanical load.

This device http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/25900/10002/-1 uses waste exhaust energy to perform the same function.


That system works good if you have open headers with no mufflers. Otherwise, the one-way valves pretty much remain closed at all times and the system does not function.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663178
02/11/18 05:22 PM
02/11/18 05:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,845
Idaho
CT8 Online content
CT8  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,845
Idaho
Years ago there were vacuum pumps made for the crankcase ,I haven't followed hot rodding for years.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663196
02/11/18 05:42 PM
02/11/18 05:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,857
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,857
Kalifornia Kollective
Pro-Stock and other classes use vacuum crankcases. Worth maybe 5 HP net at 9,000 RPM. On the street at 2,700 - worth nothing - might even be parasitic ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663296
02/11/18 08:30 PM
02/11/18 08:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 232
KS
red7404 Offline OP
red7404  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 232
KS
well OK my friends here have some very good ideas. and some info i didnt know. thanks.

Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663314
02/11/18 09:01 PM
02/11/18 09:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,699
NY, NY
NYEngineer Online content
NYEngineer  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,699
NY, NY
As stated earlier, race cars do this. There are belt driven and electrically driven vacuum pumps. It's regulated by a valve that controls the amount of leakage back into the engine.
Race guys do it for improved ring seal. In some cases the horsepower increase is fairly significant.

Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: BrocLuno] #4663526
02/12/18 07:45 AM
02/12/18 07:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,427
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,427
Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Pro-Stock and other classes use vacuum crankcases. Worth maybe 5 HP net at 9,000 RPM. On the street at 2,700 - worth nothing - might even be parasitic ...


Actually, it depends on the engine design. Pumping crankcase air under and between each cylinder can take significant work. Manufacturers now strive to reduce losses by designing in airflow management.

An inline 4 can have quite a bit more losses than a V8 depending on design.

Evacuating a crankcase is a time tested method to reduce losses. It can be done on a single cylinder engine with just a one way reed valve. Lets the air out, but not back in. The pressure quickly stabilizes at about 1/2 atmosphere.



People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: red7404] #4663945
02/12/18 02:41 PM
02/12/18 02:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,526
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
andyd  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,526
Marshfield , MA
Evacuating a crankcase is a time tested method to reduce losses. It can be done on a single cylinder engine with just a one way reed valve. Lets the air out, but not back in. The pressure quickly stabilizes at about 1/2 atmosphere.

OOOh, thats the thingee that fills the carb up with oil when you tip the mower the wrong way. grin2

Last edited by andyd; 02/12/18 02:42 PM.

'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: forced crankcase ventalation [Re: BrocLuno] #4664209
02/12/18 07:50 PM
02/12/18 07:50 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,381
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,381
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Pro-Stock and other classes use vacuum crankcases. Worth maybe 5 HP net at 9,000 RPM. On the street at 2,700 - worth nothing - might even be parasitic ...


In much lesser classes, running 1000HP engines, the gains are 10HP per 1" of vacuum. This has been solidly demonstrated over decades.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio

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