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Honda K series engine "blow by" #4644246
01/23/18 05:27 PM
01/23/18 05:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
possum328 Offline OP
possum328  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
Recently bought a 2003 Honda CR-V with 180k miles. Changed the oil this weekend and noticed a lot of blow by with the engine running and oil filler cap off. Is this indicative of serious wear or is it normal for these engines? Oil was pretty dark for the supposed miles on the change (1,000) but everything looks clean through the fill hole. Still trying to learn about Hondas, this is my first one. TIA


2003 Honda CR-V ó M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
2004 Chevy Suburban -- M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
1989 Mercruiser 3.0l (Chevy) -- ST 15w40 and Fram Toughguard
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644271
01/23/18 05:51 PM
01/23/18 05:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,990
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,990
Illinois
Blow by can be caused from the rings being coked. I have also seen blow by caused by a broken ring. Trav may have other suggestions.

Last edited by tig1; 01/23/18 05:54 PM.

2007 Ford Fusion 235,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 61K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644278
01/23/18 06:01 PM
01/23/18 06:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 167
MN
Tman220 Online content
Tman220  Online Content
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 167
MN
In my experience most 4 cylinders have a lot of "blow" out the valve cover when the cap is off. Is there any other indication where you think there is excessive blow by?

If you are super concerned maybe you can try doing a leakdown test. But chances are what you are experiencing is completely normal.

4 cylinders I have direct experience with that have a lot of "blow" with oil cap off
-2012 Regal GS 2.0 turbo
-2007 Camry 2.4
-2004 Honda Civic
-1998 Integra
-and plenty of others... Like I said, what you are experiencing could be completely normal and no cause for concern.

Last edited by Tman220; 01/23/18 06:06 PM.

2012 Regal GS Turbo PP 5w30
1994 Camaro Z28 LT1 355 CI, 430 RWHP PP 5W30
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644279
01/23/18 06:01 PM
01/23/18 06:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,139
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Offline
aquariuscsm  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,139
Dallas,Tx USA
Curious as how can you tell if an engine has blow-by while running it with the oil fill cap off. What takes place?


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum 5W20

Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: aquariuscsm] #4644284
01/23/18 06:06 PM
01/23/18 06:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
possum328 Offline OP
possum328  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Curious as how can you tell if an engine has blow-by while running it with the oil fill cap off. What takes place?

Air literally pumps out the filler hole.


2003 Honda CR-V ó M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
2004 Chevy Suburban -- M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
1989 Mercruiser 3.0l (Chevy) -- ST 15w40 and Fram Toughguard
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: Tman220] #4644285
01/23/18 06:07 PM
01/23/18 06:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
possum328 Offline OP
possum328  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
Originally Posted By: Tman220
In my experience most 4 cylinders have a lot of "blow" out the valve cover when the cap is off. Is there any other indication where you think there is

If you are super concerned maybe you can try doing a leakdown test. But chances are what you are experiencing is completely normal.


No other indication, seems to run fine.

Last edited by possum328; 01/23/18 06:08 PM.

2003 Honda CR-V ó M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
2004 Chevy Suburban -- M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
1989 Mercruiser 3.0l (Chevy) -- ST 15w40 and Fram Toughguard
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644293
01/23/18 06:20 PM
01/23/18 06:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,950
Chicago, IL
EdwardC Offline
EdwardC  Offline
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,950
Chicago, IL
Would excessive blow by also be evidenced with oil burning or a dropping oil level?

To be honest, I've never had my K24 Element running with the oil cap off, so I can't comment to whether it's normal at all.

Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644295
01/23/18 06:25 PM
01/23/18 06:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,090
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Online content
BrocLuno  Online Content
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,090
Kalifornia Kollective
I would do a compression test - dry followed by wet. If normal range, it is likely just a puffer ... If more that 10~15 PSI different dry to wet, you have ring issues ...

I would also do a serious ring soak to make sure they are free in the pistons to move as needed. I'd pull the plugs and shoot a big dose of Break-Free gun solvent in each cylinder. Let sit over night. Re-install plugs and drive it 25 miles with some hard accel/deccel like up/down a hill. Drain oil and change.

Less severe way, run full can BG109 (EPR) the last 100 miles of you oil change interval and then change oil and filter. Should do the trick.

If this is real blow-by, you will have oil consumption. So as it uses some oil, top up with MMO as long as you do not exceed 1 qt total. It will gently help on the way to the BG109 treatment.

Either hit it hard, or take the slow approach ... But I'm betting that it'll cut any oil consumption in half smile Unless you have broken rings or a partially destroyed piston ... A little puffing at idle is no big deal, but if it is really puffing hard, you have an issue. Imagine what is happening at speed with your foot in it ...

Me, I go straight at it. 180K is enough miles with unk service history that you could be experiencing stuck rings.

Last edited by BrocLuno; 01/23/18 06:30 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644296
01/23/18 06:27 PM
01/23/18 06:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,192
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,192
OH
If it isn't using oil, and some of these guys do, I'd have no concerns.
If it is using oil, priority one would be to replace the PCV valve and is that doesn't fix things, then priority two would be a dose of Kreen.
These are typically long-lived engines, so see how oil consumption on this new to you machine.
An '03 would be a first year K24. These have stamped steel sumps with the oil filter mounted way up high in a PITA position.
Our '12 has an alloy sump with the filter mounted base up vertically next to it.
How easy!


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644324
01/23/18 07:00 PM
01/23/18 07:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,915
WNY
redhat Offline
redhat  Offline
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,915
WNY
My 2009 Accord with the K24Z2 has done this exact same thing since I bought it with 22k on the clock only a couple years old.

Don't worry about it.

At 135k now and it gets beat daily.


17 Taurus Limited AWD - Dealer Fill of MCSB 5W-20 FL500S, 15k
14 Civic EX Coupe - NAPA Syn 0W-20 TG7317, 64k
09 Accord Sedan 5MT - Traveler 15W-40 XG7317, 151k
87 Regal Limited - 20W-50 VR1 WIX 51042
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644325
01/23/18 07:00 PM
01/23/18 07:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,972
OH
SatinSilver Offline
SatinSilver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,972
OH
Other than replacing the pcv valve with an oem unit, top it off with some Valvoline Maxlife Red bottle. It worked for me with a an F23 that starting using oil. So not sure if it was the pcv valve or the HM oil that did the trick. Only used a quart of the HM oil and caught the consumption early on. I was doing a fair amt of hwy driving at the time. Previous to topping off with Valvoline ML I topped off with a quart of Mobil 5000. After a 1500-2000 miles of hwy driving the car was down a qt again. Which is when I replaced the pcv valve and topped off with VRB. No more measurable consumption after that.

Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644348
01/23/18 07:24 PM
01/23/18 07:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
possum328 Offline OP
possum328  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 143
MN
No oil usage so far, Iíll continue to monitor. Was going to do the PCV as preventative maintenance as well but havenít gotten there yet. Thanks fellas.


2003 Honda CR-V ó M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
2004 Chevy Suburban -- M1 0w30 AFE & Fram Ultra
1989 Mercruiser 3.0l (Chevy) -- ST 15w40 and Fram Toughguard
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644390
01/23/18 07:51 PM
01/23/18 07:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,905
FL, USA
gregk24 Offline
gregk24  Offline
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,905
FL, USA
I would say it is normal. My 2006 Accord with the K24a8 did that with the oil cap off. It used about half a quart of oil in between 3500 to 5000 miles.


2012 Honda Accord EX-L K24z3
54,xxx miles
PPPP 0w20 / Fram Ultra

2014 VW Jetta SE 1.8T ea888
40,xxx miles
Castrol OEM dealer fill / OEM filter
Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: gregk24] #4644398
01/23/18 07:57 PM
01/23/18 07:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,972
OH
SatinSilver Offline
SatinSilver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,972
OH
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I would say it is normal. My 2006 Accord with the K24a8 did that with the oil cap off. It used about half a quart of oil in between 3500 to 5000 miles.


I always thought you did 3k oil changes right on the nose with that car???

Re: Honda K series engine "blow by" [Re: possum328] #4644434
01/23/18 08:26 PM
01/23/18 08:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,580
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,580
Toronto
Sounds like nothing to worry about because it might not be blow-by, just crankcase harmonics. Those 4 cyl engines have a long stroke and short rods, so there is always a rather large air displacement below the 2 opposing piston pairs every 180 degrees of crank rotation. Big excitement at the fill hole is just something that goes along with long-stroke 4's.

Why the short rods (and long stroke) are worth mentioning is because lower rod-to-stroke length ratios impart a less-linear rate of piston acceleration/deceleration as it travels the bore. That just means that while the piston accelerates with an increasing rate from TDC, the rate of acceleration slows down mid-bore and then speeds up again around BDC and repeats. So compared to crankshaft degrees, the piston is getting more ahead of- and then falling behind the crankshaft at every stroke vs a longer rod. That means that the piston is not only accelerating and decelerating, but it's rate of acceleration in a single stroke speeds up and slows down again. So in addition to there being 1.2L of displacement whacking back and forth under the piston pairs, there also becomes a secondary pressure harmonic in the crankcase centered around the irregular rate of piston acceleration.

Contrarily, a longer rod and/or shorter stroke exhibits a more sinusoidal rate of accel/decel, without the brief inversion of piston acceleration rate exhibited by the K24, and all other short rod 4 cyl engines.

Basically it's normal for the engine design to have such excitement at the fill hole. If you really investigated, you might discover that it's just a low frequency harmonic, rather than a significant exodus of crankcase gasses.

You can see how Rod to stroke length ratio affects piston acceleration, the K24 in question would be very close to the blue line.


Scambling for solutions is a hopelessly futile endeavour and potentially dangerous, without first coming to a solid, personal understanding of the problem. Beware riding the ideological hobby horse.
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