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PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) #4622877
01/03/18 04:33 PM
01/03/18 04:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
I sure do learn a lot from y'all - - I love the technical discussions.

I'm curious:
After this thread (Mobil 1 AnnProt primarily 0w-20 based thread)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4622850/


I would like to know:
How does primarily PAO-based 0W-20 or 5w-20 (Mobil 1 EP or AP?) oil properties compared to GTL? (Pennz P.U.P. 0W-20 or 5w-20)

There's a lot to consider....HTHS, NOACK, etc. etc.....

I know it's impossible to determine anti-wear additive recipes, etc. etc. etc....

.
.
I'm not really concerned about "everyday, light-duty commuter work".
I wonder how they would do in "extreme/severe duty" (very high piston ring temps, for example)

Any thoughts?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4622905
01/03/18 05:03 PM
01/03/18 05:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,229
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,229
Iowegia - USA
I think the GTL compares very well to PAO, but no finished oil formulation today contains ONLY PAO or GTL or Group III, or Group II.

I wish people would understand this and get off this "one base oil" only mentality.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/

Last edited by MolaKule; 01/03/18 05:05 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4622937
01/03/18 05:43 PM
01/03/18 05:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
I'm to dumb to play a 2 base stringed instrument smirk

OTOH - it seems to be an uphill battle to get folks to see that ALL oils short of jet engine lubes are a blend that includes dino. The "Synthetic" guys just don't get that they have a significant percentage of dino as a carrier for the add pak coffee

Last edited by BrocLuno; 01/03/18 05:44 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: BrocLuno] #4622957
01/03/18 06:10 PM
01/03/18 06:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,420
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Online content
Cujet  Online Content
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,420
Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
The "Synthetic" guys just don't get that they have a significant percentage of dino as a carrier for the add pak


And yet conventional oil continues to result in stuck piston rings, clogged oil ring drain holes, coked turbo and oil lines, along with the associated varnish and sludge.

The quality synthetics avoid all of this.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4622980
01/03/18 06:32 PM
01/03/18 06:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 402
new jersey
hemitruck Offline
hemitruck  Offline
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 402
new jersey
I thought the base was a highly refined Dino base as compared to reg conventional!.

Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: MolaKule] #4623005
01/03/18 06:58 PM
01/03/18 06:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
no finished oil formulation today contains ONLY PAO or GTL or Group III, or Group II.


I really wasn't trying to insinuate this...

I did use the word "based" hoping no one would assume I referring to 100% make-up.

I'm curious to know which properties are comparable/similar between the two,
...and which properties seem to be opposite of each other (if that's even possible)


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: MolaKule] #4623007
01/03/18 07:01 PM
01/03/18 07:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

I wish people would understand this and get off this "one base oil" only mentality.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/


I think for the sake of a scientific discussion,
I'd like to know some of the "deeper" characteristics & parameters of each type of blending stock...

...rather than all the other "relatively generic" info that gets parroted repeatedly through the threads.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4623075
01/03/18 08:19 PM
01/03/18 08:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,734
Texas, Mentone for work, Galve...
Bryanccfshr Offline
Bryanccfshr  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,734
Texas, Mentone for work, Galve...
This article goes into a little comparison.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/sep-2014/uncertainty-ahead-for-base-stocks

An Intersting point, the automotive demand for low viscosity basestock is straining the supply chain of PAO. GTL production at the time of publication was not high enough to close that gap.
GTL seems to have similar but more controlled NOACK volatility over PAO
GTL and grp III+ Seem to outperform PAO in viscosity index while
PAO has an advantage in pour point.

In a fully formulated oil this is all a bunch of hokey, the whole is greater than the sum of individual parts.


2018 Trd Pro 4Runner M1 0w40
2018 Tacoma off-road Castrol 5w30 Magnatec
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Bryanccfshr] #4623150
01/03/18 09:57 PM
01/03/18 09:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 75
USA
Sylvatica Offline
Sylvatica  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 75
USA
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr


Interesting article, thanks.

Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Bryanccfshr] #4623155
01/03/18 10:08 PM
01/03/18 10:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
This article goes into a little comparison.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/sep-2014/uncertainty-ahead-for-base-stocks
An interesting point, the automotive demand for low viscosity basestock is straining the supply chain of PAO.
GTL production at the time of publication was not high enough to close that gap.


.....and it's been several years now. I just first heard of GTL for the first time maybe 2 years ago.


Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
In a fully formulated oil this is all a bunch of hokey, the whole is greater than the sum of individual parts.


.

Hypothetical:

Let's say you are a chemical engineer and a CLS. (R.I.P. George)

You get hired by say..... Ashland oil, and your new job is to develop a synthetic oil product
that will be marketed as a peer against Pennz Ultra Platinum and Mobil 1 Extended Performance
(I chose these two as they seem to be exceedingly popular. Sorry Castrol fans).

You can choose any basestocks and additives you wish to choose - - Including PAO and GTL.

Here's the hard answer - they are both so good, what would you choose to blend with, and why?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4623157
01/03/18 10:12 PM
01/03/18 10:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
With the supposed test being Ashland - I think we have the answer in Synpower laugh


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Cujet] #4623167
01/03/18 10:18 PM
01/03/18 10:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
The "Synthetic" guys just don't get that they have a significant percentage of dino as a carrier for the add pak


And yet conventional oil continues to result in stuck piston rings, clogged oil ring drain holes, coked turbo and oil lines, along with the associated varnish and sludge.

The quality synthetics avoid all of this.


See here's the problem I have with that premise. We have coked turbos - really with correctly configured drains? How about all the millions of OTR trucks with turbos running cherry red on good old dino HDEO with OCI at 20,000 miles ... Clogged oil ring drains, seems to be related to some makes and to a world of Jiffy Lube oil changes. Are you sure that would have happened on a premium dino, or just bulk oil ...

There are obviously good dinos (Delo, Delvac, etc.) and bad dinos. There are good synthetics and I'm sure there are bad ones too. Up to the operator to buy the appropriate oil. Just the synthetic is not going to protect anyone ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: BrocLuno] #4623191
01/03/18 10:39 PM
01/03/18 10:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
With the supposed test being Ashland - I think we have the answer in Synpower laugh


It's just the first name that popped in my head wink


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4623232
01/03/18 11:10 PM
01/03/18 11:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,734
Texas, Mentone for work, Galve...
Bryanccfshr Offline
Bryanccfshr  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,734
Texas, Mentone for work, Galve...
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
This article goes into a little comparison.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/sep-2014/uncertainty-ahead-for-base-stocks
An interesting point, the automotive demand for low viscosity basestock is straining the supply chain of PAO.
GTL production at the time of publication was not high enough to close that gap.


.....and it's been several years now. I just first heard of GTL for the first time maybe 2 years ago.


Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
In a fully formulated oil this is all a bunch of hokey, the whole is greater than the sum of individual parts.


.

Hypothetical:

Let's say you are a chemical engineer and a CLS. (R.I.P. George)

You get hired by say..... Ashland oil, and your new job is to develop a synthetic oil product
that will be marketed as a peer against Pennz Ultra Platinum and Mobil 1 Extended Performance
(I chose these two as they seem to be exceedingly popular. Sorry Castrol fans).

You can choose any basestocks and additives you wish to choose - - Including PAO and GTL.

Here's the hard answer - they are both so good, what would you choose to blend with, and why?



You left budget out of the question. Competitive pricing for a performance standard is the name of the game. A developer can always over engineer a product a machine or a building for the targeted performance target.
Being able to meet the performance target in a budget range is more financially rewarding than developing the best possible oil ever. Itís easy to develo0 the best ever, not many people are willing to pay for the cost differential in the final,
Product that would be marginally different (most likely unmeasurable or noticeable tothe consumer) than a more cost competitive product.
If my career was on the line I would design a product to compete on production cost as well as performance.

The best possible product is probably out there..but does it provide a material difference to performance that you would be willing to pay for?
For most applicationsm I would bet people would say no. And most those who would agree to pay more for absolute best, donít actually require it but have personal reasons.

Last edited by Bryanccfshr; 01/03/18 11:17 PM.

2018 Trd Pro 4Runner M1 0w40
2018 Tacoma off-road Castrol 5w30 Magnatec
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4623234
01/03/18 11:14 PM
01/03/18 11:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,408
San Antonio, TX
Nyogtha Offline
Nyogtha  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,408
San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
This article goes into a little comparison.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/sep-2014/uncertainty-ahead-for-base-stocks
An interesting point, the automotive demand for low viscosity basestock is straining the supply chain of PAO.
GTL production at the time of publication was not high enough to close that gap.


.....and it's been several years now. I just first heard of GTL for the first time maybe 2 years ago.


Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
In a fully formulated oil this is all a bunch of hokey, the whole is greater than the sum of individual parts.


.

Hypothetical:

Let's say you are a chemical engineer and a CLS. (R.I.P. George)

You get hired by say..... Ashland oil, and your new job is to develop a synthetic oil product
that will be marketed as a peer against Pennz Ultra Platinum and Mobil 1 Extended Performance
(I chose these two as they seem to be exceedingly popular. Sorry Castrol fans).

You can choose any basestocks and additives you wish to choose - - Including PAO and GTL.

Here's the hard answer - they are both so good, what would you choose to blend with, and why?



Ashland no longer has any ownership interest in petroleum refining and lubricating oils.

Marathon purchased Ashland's interest in the Marathon Ashland JV last decade. Marathon Petroleum sold the former Ashland St. Paul Park refinery, which is now owned by Andeavor after passing through a few owners. Marathon Petroleum still owns the former Ashland refineries at Catlettsburg, KY & Canton, OH. Only these 3 Ashland refineries were still operating in 1998 when the Marathon Ashland JV was formed; Ashland had 8 refineries at one point in time prior to that.

Ashland spun Valvoline off as a wholly seperate entity a few years ago.

Ashland specified Ashland wished to focus on less capital intensive businesses.


"No matter how paranoid you are you're not paranoid enough. Tell the truth. Reach as many people as you can with it. That's your weapon." - Susanne Modeski, aka "Holly" to The Lone Gunmen
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