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#4612641 - 12/24/17 01:32 AM ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4
Bailes1992 Offline


Registered: 03/10/17
Posts: 119
Loc: South Wales, UK
Can an oil meet ACEA C3 and ACEA A3/B4?

I'm noticing more and more oil manufacturers are selling oil as ACEA C3 and ACEA A3/B4. I was always under the assumption they were mutually exclusive?
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#4612655 - 12/24/17 02:18 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
Kamele0N Offline


Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 2041
Loc: Slovenia
They just label it like that...

Since both has HTHS @3.5 min...and everything else being "equal" (lets say)... Formulators can produce ashless C3 oil that can protect as good as A4/B4 with his "ash" add pack...
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#4612657 - 12/24/17 02:24 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
Kamele0N Offline


Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 2041
Loc: Slovenia
Except that Cx oils are inferior at long drain intervals...since they have lower TBN numbers because of its ashless add pack technology...
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#4612675 - 12/24/17 03:27 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4462
Loc: Down Under
The oils are mutually exclusive but have some similarities, both are PCMOs with a HTHS above 3.5 cP and a Noack below 13%

A3/B4 requires a TBN above 10 and a Sulphated Ash between 1.0 and 1.6 %

C3 requires a TBN above 6 and a Sulphated Ash below 0.8 %

So A3/B4 is the high SAPS version of the oil, while C3 is the mid-SAPS version of the oil.

For low sulphur fuel and reasonable oil change intervals (OCI), their usage overlaps, but they can Not be the same oil.

BTW the low-SAPS version is C4.
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#4612679 - 12/24/17 03:54 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
Kamele0N Offline


Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 2041
Loc: Slovenia
He summed up with better words/explanation thumbsup


Edited by Kamele0N (12/24/17 03:58 AM)
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#4612693 - 12/24/17 05:33 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
NGRhodes Offline


Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 326
Loc: West Yorkshire, UK
Simple answer is No, not any more.

I mentioned this in another thread, when C3 was introduced there was an overlap ACEA specs that allowed the same oil to carry A3/A4 and C3. Newer specification eliminated this overlap.

If there are any current ACEA oils claiming A3/B4 and C3 together then they are following obsolete specs or incorrectly labelled.

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#4612708 - 12/24/17 06:21 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 10033
Loc: Indiana
Can't remember the exact name, but I have some PP Euro diesel stuff that is C3 and carries the vw502 approval, but it's NOT an A3/B4 oil. Talk about confusing..

I always thought a vw502 oil by definition was a long drain oil seeing how they are typically A3/B4. Certainly not the case with a C3 approval as well.. I just use the stuff for top offs when the OCI is nearly over.
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#4613251 - 12/24/17 04:52 PM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: dlundblad]
turboseize Offline


Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 236
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Can't remember the exact name, but I have some PP Euro diesel stuff that is C3 and carries the vw502 approval, but it's NOT an A3/B4 oil. Talk about confusing..

I always thought a vw502 oil by definition was a long drain oil seeing how they are typically A3/B4. Certainly not the case with a C3 approval as well.. I just use the stuff for top offs when the OCI is nearly over.


VW 502 max interval is only 15.000km/1 year.
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#4617402 - 12/29/17 05:13 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
supercity Offline


Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 1156
Loc: Australia
VW502 can be low saps and is old enough that it existed in the day when A3/B4 could be low saps too. VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

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#4617433 - 12/29/17 06:54 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 1744
Loc: Rijeka, EU
You'll never see a major manufacturers claiming both specs as they are mutually exclusive. Some small oil producers do claim both the C3 and A3/B4, however that was possible only with ACEA sequence 2008 as min TBN for B4 spec has risen since. So either manufacturer claim something like A3/B4-08 and C3-08 ( obsolete in nature by now and not permitted by ACEA- only current spec is relevant) or it does not disclose sequence year at all. In 08 sequence min TBN for A3/B4 was 8, so some C3 indeed qualified. However this is not the truth now. Do not buy oils that aren't legit in their claims/approvals and do not encourage false play by some oil producers. Rules are clear and simple and there to be followed.


Edited by chrisri (12/29/17 07:00 AM)
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#4618107 - 12/29/17 07:00 PM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: supercity]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24586
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: supercity
VW502 can be low saps and is old enough that it existed in the day when A3/B4 could be low saps too. VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

The ACEA regime itself doesn't allow that, though. You cannot use superseded sequences past a certain length of time, and the days when A3/B4 didn't specify the current minimums are long, long past.
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#4618178 - 12/29/17 07:51 PM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992]
Kamele0N Offline


Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 2041
Loc: Slovenia
https://www.lubrizol.com/Lubricant-and-F...es/ACEA-A3B4-10

Quote:
The introduction of a minimum Total Base Number (TBN) of 8.0 mgKOH/g affects the number of ACEA sequences that can be combined with ACEA A3/B4-08. Prior to ACEA 2008, depending upon the performance of the engine oil, it was possible to combine ACEA A3/B4 with a number of other sequences including ACEA C3. However, as engine oils meeting the ACEA C Sequences are formulated to a lower sulphated ash level they tend to deliver a TBN of less than 8.0 mgKOH/g. Therefore, with the introduction of ACEA 2010 it is unlikely that engine oils meeting the ACEA C sequences will also be able to meet ACEA A3/B4.
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#4618412 - 12/30/17 01:20 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: supercity]
zeng Offline


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 2188
Loc: Malaysia
Originally Posted By: supercity
VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

Not doubting your statements, care to provide links for education ?

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#4627741 - 01/08/18 05:32 AM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Garak]
supercity Offline


Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 1156
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: supercity
VW502 can be low saps and is old enough that it existed in the day when A3/B4 could be low saps too. VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

The ACEA regime itself doesn't allow that, though. You cannot use superseded sequences past a certain length of time, and the days when A3/B4 didn't specify the current minimums are long, long past.


No arguments there.

My only point was that ACEA C3 lubes can be VW502 approved. BITOG seems to think that VW502 must be high SAPS which is not (currently) true.

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#4628373 - 01/08/18 04:24 PM Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: supercity]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24586
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Yes, it's certainly true with some grandfathered specs, but, generally speaking, it pays attention to note what the current ACEA sequence is that should be applicable.
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Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
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