Recent Topics
USS Forrestal question
by cjcride. 09/18/18 03:52 PM
Breaker Box
by Throt. 09/18/18 03:00 PM
Honda metal fuel tank seam leak
by wing0. 09/18/18 02:49 PM
Cracked single stage paint
by JHZR2. 09/18/18 01:45 PM
Options versus dealer oil changes
by Schmoe. 09/18/18 01:34 PM
Longevity of Mercon LV in a 2017 Ford Escape?
by mrdctaylor. 09/18/18 01:24 PM
I'm on a Lawn Boy jag
by andyd. 09/18/18 01:13 PM
Old (New) Tires
by ET16. 09/18/18 12:05 PM
iOs 12 for Apple
by madRiver. 09/18/18 12:01 PM
Synthetic oil overrated??
by Ablebody. 09/18/18 12:01 PM
Ferrari Monza SP 1/2
by DeepFriar. 09/18/18 11:58 AM
Any option to "Mark all forums read"
by Rick505. 09/18/18 11:54 AM
1981 280ZX Turbo
by 16HC. 09/18/18 11:12 AM
Muscle car emblems
by Snagglefoot. 09/18/18 10:15 AM
Burn out question
by Fitter30. 09/18/18 10:15 AM
Collector Oil Cans
by Snagglefoot. 09/18/18 10:06 AM
Thoughts on this truck and price.
by ls1mike. 09/18/18 08:39 AM
Canadian Tire Lucas Synthetic Motorcycle Oil 20w50
by Snagglefoot. 09/18/18 07:58 AM
Blast from my past
by 53' Stude. 09/18/18 07:25 AM
Newest Members
tomkat22, tabar2004, SierraMan, Rennmeister, KeithCoates
66004 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
85 registered members (Ablebody, 2oldtommy, 28oz, ArrestMeRedZ, 55hambone, 8 invisible), 1,742 guests, and 41 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics290,600
Posts4,847,274
Members66,004
Most Online3,590
Jan 24th, 2017
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 #4612641
12/24/17 02:32 AM
12/24/17 02:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 149
South Wales, UK
Bailes1992 Offline OP
Bailes1992  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 149
South Wales, UK
Can an oil meet ACEA C3 and ACEA A3/B4?

I'm noticing more and more oil manufacturers are selling oil as ACEA C3 and ACEA A3/B4. I was always under the assumption they were mutually exclusive?


'13 Suzuki Jimmny - '16 Dacia Duster 1.5DCi 4WD
'96 LR Defender 300TDi - '12 BMW 320d

Engine Oil - Fuchs Titan XTL GT1 5w40
Gearbox Oil - Fuchs Sintofluid 75w80
Diff Oil - Fuchs Sintopoid 75w90
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4612655
12/24/17 03:18 AM
12/24/17 03:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
They just label it like that...

Since both has HTHS @3.5 min...and everything else being "equal" (lets say)... Formulators can produce ashless C3 oil that can protect as good as A4/B4 with his "ash" add pack...


2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4612657
12/24/17 03:24 AM
12/24/17 03:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
Except that Cx oils are inferior at long drain intervals...since they have lower TBN numbers because of its ashless add pack technology...


2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4612675
12/24/17 04:27 AM
12/24/17 04:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
The oils are mutually exclusive but have some similarities, both are PCMOs with a HTHS above 3.5 cP and a Noack below 13%

A3/B4 requires a TBN above 10 and a Sulphated Ash between 1.0 and 1.6 %

C3 requires a TBN above 6 and a Sulphated Ash below 0.8 %

So A3/B4 is the high SAPS version of the oil, while C3 is the mid-SAPS version of the oil.

For low sulphur fuel and reasonable oil change intervals (OCI), their usage overlaps, but they can Not be the same oil.

BTW the low-SAPS version is C4.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4612679
12/24/17 04:54 AM
12/24/17 04:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
He summed up with better words/explanation thumbsup

Last edited by Kamele0N; 12/24/17 04:58 AM.

2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4612693
12/24/17 06:33 AM
12/24/17 06:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 354
West Yorkshire, UK
NGRhodes Online content
NGRhodes  Online Content
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 354
West Yorkshire, UK
Simple answer is No, not any more.

I mentioned this in another thread, when C3 was introduced there was an overlap ACEA specs that allowed the same oil to carry A3/A4 and C3. Newer specification eliminated this overlap.

If there are any current ACEA oils claiming A3/B4 and C3 together then they are following obsolete specs or incorrectly labelled.

Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4612708
12/24/17 07:21 AM
12/24/17 07:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,435
Indiana
dlundblad Offline
dlundblad  Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,435
Indiana
Can't remember the exact name, but I have some PP Euro diesel stuff that is C3 and carries the vw502 approval, but it's NOT an A3/B4 oil. Talk about confusing..

I always thought a vw502 oil by definition was a long drain oil seeing how they are typically A3/B4. Certainly not the case with a C3 approval as well.. I just use the stuff for top offs when the OCI is nearly over.


03 Jeep WJ 4.0 200k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 177k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 149k Rotella T5 10w30 Supertech ST3980

Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: dlundblad] #4613251
12/24/17 05:52 PM
12/24/17 05:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Offline
turboseize  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Can't remember the exact name, but I have some PP Euro diesel stuff that is C3 and carries the vw502 approval, but it's NOT an A3/B4 oil. Talk about confusing..

I always thought a vw502 oil by definition was a long drain oil seeing how they are typically A3/B4. Certainly not the case with a C3 approval as well.. I just use the stuff for top offs when the OCI is nearly over.


VW 502 max interval is only 15.000km/1 year.


Life ist too short for boring cars.
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4617402
12/29/17 06:13 AM
12/29/17 06:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,164
Australia
supercity Offline
supercity  Offline
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,164
Australia
VW502 can be low saps and is old enough that it existed in the day when A3/B4 could be low saps too. VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4617433
12/29/17 07:54 AM
12/29/17 07:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,749
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,749
Rijeka, EU
You'll never see a major manufacturers claiming both specs as they are mutually exclusive. Some small oil producers do claim both the C3 and A3/B4, however that was possible only with ACEA sequence 2008 as min TBN for B4 spec has risen since. So either manufacturer claim something like A3/B4-08 and C3-08 ( obsolete in nature by now and not permitted by ACEA- only current spec is relevant) or it does not disclose sequence year at all. In 08 sequence min TBN for A3/B4 was 8, so some C3 indeed qualified. However this is not the truth now. Do not buy oils that aren't legit in their claims/approvals and do not encourage false play by some oil producers. Rules are clear and simple and there to be followed.

Last edited by chrisri; 12/29/17 08:00 AM.

02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: supercity] #4618107
12/29/17 08:00 PM
12/29/17 08:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: supercity
VW502 can be low saps and is old enough that it existed in the day when A3/B4 could be low saps too. VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

The ACEA regime itself doesn't allow that, though. You cannot use superseded sequences past a certain length of time, and the days when A3/B4 didn't specify the current minimums are long, long past.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Bailes1992] #4618178
12/29/17 08:51 PM
12/29/17 08:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,194
Slovenia EU
https://www.lubrizol.com/Lubricant-and-F...es/ACEA-A3B4-10

Quote:
The introduction of a minimum Total Base Number (TBN) of 8.0 mgKOH/g affects the number of ACEA sequences that can be combined with ACEA A3/B4-08. Prior to ACEA 2008, depending upon the performance of the engine oil, it was possible to combine ACEA A3/B4 with a number of other sequences including ACEA C3. However, as engine oils meeting the ACEA C Sequences are formulated to a lower sulphated ash level they tend to deliver a TBN of less than 8.0 mgKOH/g. Therefore, with the introduction of ACEA 2010 it is unlikely that engine oils meeting the ACEA C sequences will also be able to meet ACEA A3/B4.


2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: supercity] #4618412
12/30/17 02:20 AM
12/30/17 02:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,256
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,256
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: supercity
VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

Not doubting your statements, care to provide links for education ?

Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: Garak] #4627741
01/08/18 06:32 AM
01/08/18 06:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,164
Australia
supercity Offline
supercity  Offline
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,164
Australia
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: supercity
VW502 can be low saps and is old enough that it existed in the day when A3/B4 could be low saps too. VW have recently revised this spec so that VW502 must be high SAPS. Licenced Low SAPS oils can keep their license until it expires.

The ACEA regime itself doesn't allow that, though. You cannot use superseded sequences past a certain length of time, and the days when A3/B4 didn't specify the current minimums are long, long past.


No arguments there.

My only point was that ACEA C3 lubes can be VW502 approved. BITOG seems to think that VW502 must be high SAPS which is not (currently) true.

Re: ACEA C3 Oils Being Sold As Meeting ACEA A3/B4 [Re: supercity] #4628373
01/08/18 05:24 PM
01/08/18 05:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Yes, it's certainly true with some grandfathered specs, but, generally speaking, it pays attention to note what the current ACEA sequence is that should be applicable.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™