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Wanna take on an F-35 #4588868
11/29/17 01:10 PM
11/29/17 01:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
OneEyeJack Offline OP
OneEyeJack  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
Want to compete with an F-35 using a cheap plane that was developed on a reasonable budget, on time and has all the same network capable electronics, can out fly the F-35 in every way such performance can be analyzed, can land on a dirt road and be maintained in the field without one special tool? You can also swap an engine in one hour with two standard squadron service people in a field instead of many more specially trained F-35 service people not normally assigned to a squadron but to a depot in a dedicated shop with specialized tools in an undisclosed time because of the reassembly of stealth panels.

Meet the Gripen E, an interesting alternative to the F-35. It can't do VTOL but it's STOL abilities on dirt roads that would scare a Cessna pilot keep things simple and such performance can also be very useful in forward deployments much closer to the fight than one would ever see a fragile F-35.

Interesting.....


Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4588879
11/29/17 01:18 PM
11/29/17 01:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 397
Michigan
khittner Offline
khittner  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 397
Michigan
From my infantry days: What can be seen can be hit, and what can be hit, can be killed.

Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4588899
11/29/17 01:39 PM
11/29/17 01:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,412
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,412
New England
There's no way that Gripen could come close to matching the F35's stealth capabilities with that canard, IMHO.
There was a huge controversy about the "expensive and complicated" F16 in the early days of that program, with some in Congress pushing for the purchase of a larger number of "simple" F20 Tigersharks instead. I think the F16 has been an incredibly successful plane and doubt the Tigershark would have been a better choice.

With that said, I am deeply concerned that too many differing and antagonistic requirements were crammed into the F35 program and that some of the severe teething problems that were seen with the similarly "jack of all trades" F4 Phantom will likely be experienced again. We do need to remember that the F35 was not developed as a pure dogfighter and also that the F117 was pretty good at sneaking in and knocking out heavily defended sites without being a great high g performer. Yes, I do wish that an F35 could take on an F22 on even terms in a air battle, but that's probably asking just too much...


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Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4588934
11/29/17 02:03 PM
11/29/17 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
OneEyeJack Offline OP
OneEyeJack  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
There's no way that Gripen could come close to matching the F35's stealth capabilities with that canard, IMHO.


There's no claim that the Gripen is a stealth plane.

There are practical matters here. Most current "wars" are close in, activity intensive local battles. Practical matters are better solved with the Gripen when you consider the cost of doing business. The high flying standoff battles are not the problem facing our military. Look at the rise of the flying tank called the A-10. You could not advance your career flying one but you sure could bring the fight to the enemy and become the ground troops best friend. Somewhere in between is where the Gripen will fly and a flying, serviced, well placed Gripen that actually fits into the system would be very useful.

And then there's the hole in the system called the lack of an F-14 for the fleet. If the F-14 replacement does not show up soon I'd sleep with a life jacket on if I was a crewman on an aircraft carrier. The replacement is not the F-35. Wake up Grumman and get that next generation F-14 super, super Tomcat out to the fleet.

Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4588961
11/29/17 02:33 PM
11/29/17 02:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,600
Huntington Beach, CA
tenderloin Offline
tenderloin  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,600
Huntington Beach, CA
Politics were involved but a neighbor is buying the F-35


Looks OK to me


Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4588975
11/29/17 02:46 PM
11/29/17 02:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,600
Huntington Beach, CA
tenderloin Offline
tenderloin  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,600
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4588977
11/29/17 02:51 PM
11/29/17 02:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
IndyIan Offline
IndyIan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
I think they've got to stick the with the F35 for its combination of stealth and performance. At some point in the future, avoiding detection is going to be the way a fighter survives. Until then a Gripen or something else would be fine, but giving up the lead in the military technology race isn't a great idea given what Russia and especially China are capable of developing and manufacturing.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 218km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 15km 0W20
Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4589027
11/29/17 03:36 PM
11/29/17 03:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,534
Illinois
javacontour Offline
javacontour  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,534
Illinois
Personally, I think there is room for both.

I keep thinking back to WW2. There were tanks that were superior to the M4 Sherman. But could they be built in sufficient quantities?

Quantity has a certain quality to it.

Think of some of the conflicts Israel saw in the 1960s and 1970s. Being able to repair a tank and get it back into service was crucial to Israeli victories.

It's not just strategy and tactics that win wars. Logistics plays a big role in victory.


network down, IP packets delivered via UPS -BOFH
Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: javacontour] #4589133
11/29/17 05:44 PM
11/29/17 05:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,520
New England
gathermewool Offline
gathermewool  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,520
New England
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Personally, I think there is room for both.

I keep thinking back to WW2. There were tanks that were superior to the M4 Sherman. But could they be built in sufficient quantities?

Quantity has a certain quality to it.

Think of some of the conflicts Israel saw in the 1960s and 1970s. Being able to repair a tank and get it back into service was crucial to Israeli victories.

It's not just strategy and tactics that win wars. Logistics plays a big role in victory.


I would say that intelligence is more important than anything. If you can get in and out of an AOR and not be seen, all the while seeing much, then you're better off than your enemy.


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Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4589263
11/29/17 07:36 PM
11/29/17 07:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,679
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,679
Jupiter, Florida
Our flight department operates the mighty Gulfstream G650. Nearly 30 years ago, I operated a Gulfstream III.

Sure, the G650 is way better, plus it's bigger and a touch faster. However, they compare quite favorably to each other in outright power, climb rate and speed. For all our "bragging" we really have not achieved much in the way of outright performance.

The G-III would hit 0.94M in level flight at middling altitudes, during engine thrust testing. Yesterday, we hit 0.93 in level flight with the G650.

My point is that outright performance was achieved years ago. Today, it's the other things that make the difference.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4589270
11/29/17 07:41 PM
11/29/17 07:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
Stealth is the big thing.
Also, forget all this, UCAVs are taking over anyway. Look for a UCAV version of the F-35 in the future.

Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4589300
11/29/17 08:14 PM
11/29/17 08:14 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 783
USA
97prizm Offline
97prizm  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 783
USA
I can't remember which documentary I think History channel, but at the start of desert storm the F-117A was sent in first. The Iraqi army couldn't see it. Supposedly they only had to send a few F-117As for a huge fleet of other aircraft.


If at first you don't succeed fail fail again. (Waldorf and Statler.)
1997 Geo Prizm
1984 Mazda RX-7 Spec 7
Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: IndyIan] #4589407
11/29/17 10:04 PM
11/29/17 10:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,132
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,132
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
At some point in the future, avoiding detection is going to be the way a fighter survives.


Future? That need is here now.

The F-35 is the last "manned" fighter anyone will develop.
I predict by 2045 every fighter and bomber will be unmanned.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: 97prizm] #4589409
11/29/17 10:06 PM
11/29/17 10:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,132
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,132
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: 97prizm
I can't remember which documentary I think History channel, but at the start of desert storm the F-117A was sent in first. The Iraqi army couldn't see it. Supposedly they only had to send a few F-117As for a huge fleet of other aircraft.


Yep - all they needed to target is/was the radar sites (very, very easy to find)

once the radar is gone, sent in almost whatever you want.

In the future, that "Initial entry" will be handled by unmanned stealth aircraft.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Wanna take on an F-35 [Re: OneEyeJack] #4589452
11/29/17 10:47 PM
11/29/17 10:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,963
South Florida
bubbatime Offline
bubbatime  Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,963
South Florida
Obviously unmanned is the future. And honestly, we should be putting our money there. What if the Chinese built thousands and thousands of cheap, easily built and replaced drones? Nothing could stop them. We could perhaps shoot down hundreds of them, but the shear numbers would make them unstoppable.

Our insistence on spending $30 mil, $50 mil, $100 mil per plane is the 1980's way of dealing with Russia. Russia is in the past. We need to worry about North Korea and China now.


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