Boutique/Expensive Oils over standard brands?

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I'm finding Motul products very expensive. I checked pricing of Redline products and they are much more affordable by amazon pricing.

It seems that a big difference between boutique/expensive oils vs big brand oils is from what I can tell is Ester based oils.


While esters may be a part of it but keep in mind the PAO content even on the service products will be much higher with products listed as "100% Synthetic." The majors and other known names will mainly market "Full/Fully Synthetic" products which really don't mean anything.


I'm not fully understanding what you are saying. Can you explain more fully what you are sayings?


Sorry if I wasn't clear... You had stated the biggest difference you can find between the specialty brands and major ones was that they have some ester base oils in their formulation. My point is this. Find a brand with "100% synthetic" labeled on the bottle. It doesn't have to be an ester based product to have this. Take my recommendation of an 8100 product from Motul for example. The 8100 oils will not have ester but a significant amount more of PAO vs products that it competes directly with like Mobil 1, Castrol Edge etc. Those competitor products will be labeled as "Full/Fully Synthetic" which means, a very small amount of PAO or none at all. Even though Red Line has ester, it is still marketed as a "Full Synthetic." In my opinion, the 300V is a step above Red Line and the price points prove this- as well as the smell of the oil! 300V smells amazing which I think further proves the concentration and legitimacy of the ester oils that are being used. You can even smell the difference.

I personally would compare an 8100 oil from Motul more in line with Red Line while Mobil 1 and Castrol being a step down from both of those in terms of quality.

You don't have to break the bank getting a high quality genuine 100% synthetic product. If you look up the 8100 X-max 0w40, I think you'll find it pretty comparable to Red Line engine oils in terms of price. Also, Red Line doesn't have any API/ACEA certification or approvals from OEM's where as the X-max will have BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW and VW formal approvals in addition to API and ACEA certs.

Hope that helps.


I have a quote from Motul's website stating that 8100 series oils have Esters, just so everyone knows.

"8100 is Motul’s top of the range passenger car engine oil based on 100% synthetic technology containing esters. These products meet the up to date and most demanding OEM engine oil approval requirements. 8100 lubricants are available in the latest and fuel-efficient 0W grades. 8100 lubricants are the safest way to keep your engine protected and operating the way it was designed to, fully compliant with the car’s warranty, whether it is in stop-and-start traffic or at full speed on the motorways.
6100 is based around Motul’s Technosynthese® technology containing esters. 6100 Products come with a multitude of official OEM approvals making sure you are using the right oil for your car. 6100 is designed to be price competitive without sacrificing on quality and performance. They are available in a wide range of popular viscosity grades."

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: gryffinwings


I have a quote from Motul's website stating that 8100 series oils have Esters, just so everyone knows.

"8100 is Motul’s top of the range passenger car engine oil based on 100% synthetic technology containing esters. These products meet the up to date and most demanding OEM engine oil approval requirements. 8100 lubricants are available in the latest and fuel-efficient 0W grades. 8100 lubricants are the safest way to keep your engine protected and operating the way it was designed to, fully compliant with the car’s warranty, whether it is in stop-and-start traffic or at full speed on the motorways.
6100 is based around Motul’s Technosynthese® technology containing esters. 6100 Products come with a multitude of official OEM approvals making sure you are using the right oil for your car. 6100 is designed to be price competitive without sacrificing on quality and performance. They are available in a wide range of popular viscosity grades."


I'm not sure where you got the "8100 is Motul’s top of the range passenger car engine oil based on 100% synthetic technology containing esters," it simply isn't true. 300V is the top of PCMO range, not 8100. While 100% synthetic, 8100 does not contain esters. Some time ago a couple of their products did (Eco-Lite 0w20, one of the Eco-nergy oils) and no longer do and have been reformulated. I'm assuming you got that of one of their dealer/customer sites. The 6100 oils are not 100% synthetic and do not contain any esters either, good oils for sure but more comparable to the Mobil 1's, Castrol's and Valvoline's of the world. Good yet nothing too exotic.

 

[4WD]

You just said big oil owns these additive companies and then act like there are dependencies they can't control- you have been on and on about a (fair sized) oil company product that is not worth the cost to most of us. And that tired old "synthetic" thing. We could go German tomorrow and call them SHC - and I'd still be all over it for $24 jug before rebate and $10 end of year at AZ. However - I have just as much confidence in my GII+ Delvac or Delo ($12 gallon) cause I don't own a race car like the one in your signature ...
The parking lot at work is full of very expensive sports cars using FF oil not good enough for you.

 

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: gryffinwings


I have a quote from Motul's website stating that 8100 series oils have Esters, just so everyone knows.

"8100 is Motul’s top of the range passenger car engine oil based on 100% synthetic technology containing esters. These products meet the up to date and most demanding OEM engine oil approval requirements. 8100 lubricants are available in the latest and fuel-efficient 0W grades. 8100 lubricants are the safest way to keep your engine protected and operating the way it was designed to, fully compliant with the car’s warranty, whether it is in stop-and-start traffic or at full speed on the motorways.
6100 is based around Motul’s Technosynthese® technology containing esters. 6100 Products come with a multitude of official OEM approvals making sure you are using the right oil for your car. 6100 is designed to be price competitive without sacrificing on quality and performance. They are available in a wide range of popular viscosity grades."


I'm not sure where you got the "8100 is Motul’s top of the range passenger car engine oil based on 100% synthetic technology containing esters," it simply isn't true. 300V is the top of PCMO range, not 8100. While 100% synthetic, 8100 does not contain esters. Some time ago a couple of their products did (Eco-Lite 0w20, one of the Eco-nergy oils) and no longer do and have been reformulated. I'm assuming you got that of one of their dealer/customer sites. The 6100 oils are not 100% synthetic and do not contain any esters either, good oils for sure but more comparable to the Mobil 1's, Castrol's and Valvoline's of the world. Good yet nothing too exotic.



Here's a link to the FAQ on the Motul website. This is the www.motul.com website that I am quoting.
Motul Website FAQ

For Motul 300v it says this:
"Our 300V Motorsport range of lubricants are specifically formulated for racing applications. They are based around Motul’s unique ESTER Core® technology which combines the best performing synthetic base oils including esters with bespoke dedicated chemical additives.
The result is unrivalled power increase, outstanding lubrication and optimal protection, the best conditions for ultimate victory! These lubricants have been developed for leading Factory Racing Teams Worldwide, but also have exactly the same availability to the general public!"

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: gryffinwings
I am definitely considering Motul 8100 of one of the 2 flavors mentioned in my engine build, the current Mobil 1 High Mileage in the D15A3 with almost 200k miles should definitely last long enough until I have all the parts I need for the swap.

I'm just wondering what the difference is between Motul 8100 X-cess 4w40 and Motul 8100 X-max 0w40? I have no problem either way, I just don't know what benefits one has over the other.

And thanks so far for explaining the nuances of the industry, it is hard enough to find the best oil to use when there are so many choices, and you don't know what they are using in the oil as a base stock.


No problem!

There is no benefit as far as I know... There is some speculation that the X-max 0w40 may have more PAO vs the X-cess 5w40 considering the price point is a little bit higher. The X-max has a slightly higher VI and is a little thinner at 100*C than the X-cess. HTHS figures and TBN are basically the same. Pumpability would be a bit better with X-max at startup. Both carry the exact same OEM approvals as well. You can't go wrong with either. In this case, get whatever is most accessible and makes sense financially. The packaging will be loads better too than the cheap domestic bottles we get... There's a retractable spout built into the bottle so need for a funnel. Even the packaging is higher end.

 

[4WD]

Here is the chart Shannow has provided for other reasons - you can see a smaller company can one stop shop (from XOM) a mostly PAO motor oil with minor ester for utility - think the 5w30 (very common grade) looks attractive - but don't know what it would cost.
(Amsoil price perhaps)

 

[DeepFriar]

Just to reiterate:

Corporate website says, "100% Synthetic - Ester" for this particular product. It's almost certainly a mixture of PAO/Ester, but top heavy with ester, as a finished product.

The difference over which oil is their "top" passenger car oil is a semantic difference caused by Motul themselves. They break the 300V series out as a motorsport product and the 8100 as passenger car. So no need to argue, you are both right.

 

[gryffinwings]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Just to reiterate:

Corporate website says, "100% Synthetic - Ester" for this particular product. It's almost certainly a mixture of PAO/Ester, but top heavy with ester, as a finished product.

The difference over which oil is their "top" passenger car oil is a semantic difference caused by Motul themselves. They break the 300V series out as a motorsport product and the 8100 as passenger car. So no need to argue, you are both right.


The only point I was making was that the Motul website I was quoting did indeed say that the 8100 series oils contain Esters. That's all I was saying, not trying to argue.

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Here is the chart Shannow has provided for other reasons - you can see a smaller company can one stop shop (from XOM) a mostly PAO motor oil with minor ester for utility - think the 5w30 (very common grade) looks attractive - but don't know what it would cost.
(Amsoil price perhaps)



The day Mobil 1 5w30 has a NOACK of 6 will be the day [censored] freezes over... This proves what we've discussed all along. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Flying_A]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Just to reiterate:

Corporate website says, "100% Synthetic - Ester" for this particular product. It's almost certainly a mixture of PAO/Ester, but top heavy with ester, as a finished product.

The difference over which oil is their "top" passenger car oil is a semantic difference caused by Motul themselves. They break the 300V series out as a motorsport product and the 8100 as passenger car. So no need to argue, you are both right.


Ah yes, the Sport product... Forgot all about it. Positioned between 300V and 8100. It is only carried in 5w40 and 5w50 grades though. So OP, this has your name possibly written all over it. It should be quite a bit cheaper than 300V as well.

 

[DeepFriar]

Five liter bottle, $69 on Amazon, apparently with shipping included for "qualifying orders".. You'd have to buy three two liter bottles of 300V (only way it comes) for around $100. That's actually better pricing than it used to be (300V @ $21/liter) and makes me wary about possible shipping charge shenanigans.

 

[gryffinwings]

I found Motul 8100 x-cess 5w40 at ECS tuning website for cheaper, get 5 quarts jug and a smaller 1 quart for like 55 dollars with free shipping of purchases over 49 dollars. The 5 quart jug is like 45 dollars.

 

[gryffinwings]

Here's the link to the ECS tuning website.

ECS Tuning Motul x-cess 5w40

 

[4WD]

So you think they put things into print that don't get tested by their customers who happen to be oil formulators themselves - really? At the end of the day - neither you or the OP has more car than a dozen show room offerings these days.
You have no chance of not being bias - and have been throwing in all kind of jabs at companies you just don't like - I'm betting you just don't like Big Oil

 

[4WD]

Furthermore - the chart was posted as an example of how a boutique company can produce a high quality oil buying Big oil products (or whoever - I happened to keep Shannow's chart) - and what dpaint pointed out.
You turned the narrative to Mobil 1 knowing full well they vary base oils in each product line just as many do for good reason -price points - OEM market - you should keep things at the same price in comparisons...

M1 ESP is low NOACK - but not Walmart cheap - has tougher German car approvals ...
There are many great SHC oils that can handle the cars in this thread - but spend it while ya got it ...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I look at it this way. Simply put, keep in mind most if not all of the boutique oil companies are getting their "supplies" from major oil companies like XOM and Shell. Do you really think they get anything better than XOM and Shell would use for their own oils? We'd like to believe that's the case, proving it is another story.

True, but how they are blending the components and the amount of each used could be the difference between the two.


True, and on the other hand, maybe not. I've yet to see factual proof one way or another.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I look at it this way. Simply put, keep in mind most if not all of the boutique oil companies are getting their "supplies" from major oil companies like XOM and Shell. Do you really think they get anything better than XOM and Shell would use for their own oils? We'd like to believe that's the case, proving it is another story.


The pure fact that you can get 100% synthetic products from boutique-specialist companies who proudly state they even use grp 5 oils while big oil cannot even claim a 100% synthetic product in a single auto product they manufacture is a major factor for me.

The additive market (as well as PAO) and esters) is controlled by 3-4 players. On the additive side, Chevron (Oronite), Lubrizol and a joint venture of Shell/XOM (Infineum I think) make up nearly the entire market. So even big oil relies on additive packages from these companies, not only the small manufacturers. And like base oils, there are a ton of different quality levels of additive even if they are the same compound. I can say for sure that that these guys (small-specialist co's) not only are using superior base oil formulations but they are also using the upper end scale of additive quality as well. Again, it is the only way to leverage yourself in the face of companies 100x bigger than you. You either fight them with quality and technical expertise or you make ultra cheap private label oils found at the gas station that you've never heard of that don't even comply with an API SJ rating.

Don't even get me started on the manufacturing side... Big oil rarely even makes their own stuff. Castrol for instance has a blending partner here in North America. They literally don't even make their product for this ENTIRE market. This goes for all these major oil co's globally. They are too big to keep everything under one roof. Whereas, the small companies, not only have better quality control, product continuity and product integrity they also can actually make their own product and distribute it globally.


These were the answers I was expecting to see. No disrespect intended, but when I see tear downs from the boutique oil blenders proving their products do a better job than the top tier products from the majors I'll believe it. I see lots of rave reviews lately from Castrol's Magnatec in the UOA section, some people would almost think it's a high end boutique oil based solely on results. I'm also willing to bet if Magnatec was labeled as a boutique oil and a boutique oil blender slapped their name on it there are quite a few Bitog'ers who'd pay a lot more for it because of the name slapped on the label. Who makes it for them and where it comes from doesn't matter to me. Results and proof is all that matters if I'm going to be paying a premium price for oil. YMMV

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Flying_A
The day Mobil 1 5w30 has a NOACK of 6 will be the day [censored] freezes over...

Link

Column 6 is Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30. Tested NOACK value is 5.6%.

Pack a warm coat, I guess.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Flying_A
The day Mobil 1 5w30 has a NOACK of 6 will be the day [censored] freezes over...

Link

Column 6 is Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30. Tested NOACK value is 5.6%.

Pack a warm coat, I guess.


Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 is not Mobil 1 5w30. (look at the HTHS, KV 100 and TBN from the blending chart)

 

[4WD]

Don't think the blending chart is Mobil 1 - too much PAO. It seems more likely what they would sell to someone making Amsoil Signature quality oil ...