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#4442770 - 06/27/17 12:42 PM HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming
BufordTJustice Offline


Registered: 11/17/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Middle Florida
I have a 1999 Porsche 911 C2 Cab 3.4. I have recently ditched the non-FS Mobil 1 0w-40 which was in the crankcase for Castrol EDGE 0w-40 (which is already smoother and offering slightly higher idle oil pressure at operating temp). However, I am seeing that the KV100 of these 0w-40 oils seems to be creeping lower. I tried some Pennzoil Plat Euro 0w-40, which simply did not run as smoothly in my engine. I'm satisfied with the Castrol 0w-40 so far, but am curious regarding a thicker solution.

According to various Porsche engine-building experts on the subject of the M96 flat six engine (1999-2005 Porsche 996 engines, from 3.4-3.6 liters), moving to a 5w-40 for the additional KV100/HTHS viscosity offers notable improvements in chamber wall and valvetrain wear. Jake Raby (Flat 6 Innovations) recommends Joe Gibbs DT40 (though it is not Porsche A40 certified, it was claimed to be developed with the M96 engine as a primary factor) over other offerings due to higher ZDDP content and higher overall KV100 viscosity. He doesn't rec anything else now, and forces people who use his IMS bearing solutions to use that oil in order to keep their warranty for his work.

When Jake Raby was asked about using an HDEO (Rotella T6 5w-40, in this specific case), he mentioned that oil foaming/aeration was a serious issue that Rotella T6 did not address...and he offered anecdotal observations where he had seen a foam "head" (like the head of a freshly poured pint of beer) form in a several engines running T6 on track days, and that this would lead to the obvious oil starvation issues that performance engines are susceptible to in these circumstances.

However, I have read from several sources that Chevron Delo 400 LE/XSP (CJ/4 & CK/4, respectively) 5w-40 has a superior anti-foam additive package that was specifically designed to address oil foaming/aeration in the Ford Powerstroke series of engines (both current PowerStroke and Navistar engines) for their high pressure fuel injectors and pumps. The PDS even mentions the "defoaming additive [which] helps prevent air entrapment". I'm not too terribly concerned with Cat life for my 99 911, though the cats do tend to run on the hot side and upgrading to 200 cell cats (OEM are 100 cell) is a common performance upgrade. Delo 400 5w-40 is SN rated and stated to be suitable for mixed fleets, as well.

I would be very excited to have inexpensive access to a solid 5w-40 oil that costs only slightly more than the $22 5 quart Castrol EDGE 0w-40 I can get at Walmart. Oil change intervals are very short; 3k or 6 months until engine gets cleaned out. Won't be exceeding 5k/6 months with any oil...ever. Yes, I know it's a waste.

I have already installed the LN Engineering oil filter adapter and am running a Fram Ultra 3675.

The info I can find on the current EDGE 0w-40 is KV100 @ 13.1-13.6 and an HTHS of 3.6-3.7. I can't find any HTHS figures for the Delo 400 5w-40, but KV100 is rated at 14.6. I've read that going above KV100 of 15 can result in Variable Valve Timing errors, so I'm not interested in exploring that.

I live in Central Florida. This is a 2nd vehicle for me, and I do not short-trip it. However, when I do get out and drive, I drive HARD once it is up to operating temp. No abuse, but it's not uncommon for me to bomb on back roads for an hour, then hop on a highway and hammer-down until I hot traffic or get off...and then bake in traffic at a few stop lights until I get to my destination.....in the 95 degree heat and humidity. I regularly explore RPMs from 6800-7200. I have a low temp thermostat installed, the vehicle is in excellent condition, and all temps and indicators are normal.

I just want the higher viscosity in the heat without triggering error codes for the VarioCam (VVT) system without being forced to purchase some boutique oil at above-amsoil prices.


Can anybody offer any information, insight, commentary, etc on how much oil foaming could be an issue for an HDEO oil such as the Chevron Delo 400 5w-40 in my high-revving (7250 RPM redline) 3.4 911 engine?
_________________________
1999 Porsche 911 Cab 3.4 6-speed -> Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 ESP (CJ4) -> Fram Ultra XG3675

2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R -> M1 0w-40 FS -> Fram Ultra XG3593A

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#4443102 - 06/27/17 07:18 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: BufordTJustice]
NewYorkBuck Offline


Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 40
Loc: NY, NY
I have a 996 turbo. I know a different engine design than yours, but Ive tried a few different oils so I'll give you my two cents. I went from M1 0W-40 (loudest and worst UOAs), to Delvac ESP 5W-40 (quieter and better UOAs), and finally Motul 300V 5W-40 Power. The Motul has been by far the best in quieting the engine and has given the best UOAs Ive seen for my car.

I don't do many short trips like you, and do drive it hard when the situation allows. I also typically put less than 4k on my car per year, and change once in the late fall. Yes, its expensive, but IMO worth it considering how expensive it would be for an internal engine failure on that car. And as I already mentioned, its only once a year.

As far as foaming, I don't have any direct experience with that, but since the 300V is a race oil with an add pack that makes it suitable for the street, my bet is you won't find any foaming problem here.

Best of luck to you.

Edit - its not A40 certified if that matters to you, but last I checked it had an HTHS of 4.1, pretty impressive for a 5W-40 oil.



Edited by NewYorkBuck (06/27/17 07:22 PM)

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#4443105 - 06/27/17 07:25 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: BufordTJustice]
DB_Cooper Offline


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 401
Loc: Ga
My background is as a factory trained Porsche tech back in 80s and as a 911 owner (2.4 and 3.2) that has run T6 in two cars for decades over 100's of thousands of miles I can say I have never seen T6 or any HDEO foam..ever. Urban Myth propagated by those that want to sell boutique engine oils IMO.

I use Rotella T6 in my Vanagon as well. Use Delo LE 15w40 in a couple of my older Audi(s). Any good CJ-4/SM HDEO is not a problem in your car.

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#4443107 - 06/27/17 07:26 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: NewYorkBuck]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 11009
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: NewYorkBuck
I have a 996 turbo.
So awesome !! woo hoo !!!
_________________________
"Don't let your preconceived notions get in the way of facts."
Geoff Metcalf

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#4443398 - 06/28/17 04:09 AM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: BufordTJustice]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24620
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Doug Hillary has posted extensively about the use of Delvac 1 in Porsche engines over the years.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4443639 - 06/28/17 10:11 AM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: Garak]
BufordTJustice Offline


Registered: 11/17/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Middle Florida
Originally Posted By: NewYorkBuck
I have a 996 turbo. I know a different engine design than yours, but Ive tried a few different oils so I'll give you my two cents. I went from M1 0W-40 (loudest and worst UOAs), to Delvac ESP 5W-40 (quieter and better UOAs), and finally Motul 300V 5W-40 Power. The Motul has been by far the best in quieting the engine and has given the best UOAs Ive seen for my car.

I don't do many short trips like you, and do drive it hard when the situation allows. I also typically put less than 4k on my car per year, and change once in the late fall. Yes, its expensive, but IMO worth it considering how expensive it would be for an internal engine failure on that car. And as I already mentioned, its only once a year.

As far as foaming, I don't have any direct experience with that, but since the 300V is a race oil with an add pack that makes it suitable for the street, my bet is you won't find any foaming problem here.

Best of luck to you.

Edit - its not A40 certified if that matters to you, but last I checked it had an HTHS of 4.1, pretty impressive for a 5W-40 oil.



Excellent info! I'm not super concerned with the A40 cert, though it's nice to have. I, like you, am just using my logical brain and am willing to admit that there are far better oils out there than Mobil 0w-40 for the M96 (and for your Metzger engine, which is quite a mill). I just saw a 2008 997 Turbo in speed yellow the other day (same basic engine as yours) and they are incredible. An HTHS of 4.1 is excellent...especially for the naturally aspirated M96, which runs VERY hot, even with a low temp thermostat. Before the low temp thermostat, oil temps of 270F were seen just in traffic with the mobil 1 fill. After the thermostat, and using EDGE 0w-40, I haven't seen anything over 240F, even when beating on the car pretty bad in 98 degree heat.

Thanks, again, for your input.



Originally Posted By: DB_Cooper
My background is as a factory trained Porsche tech back in 80s and as a 911 owner (2.4 and 3.2) that has run T6 in two cars for decades over 100's of thousands of miles I can say I have never seen T6 or any HDEO foam..ever. Urban Myth propagated by those that want to sell boutique engine oils IMO.

I use Rotella T6 in my Vanagon as well. Use Delo LE 15w40 in a couple of my older Audi(s). Any good CJ-4/SM HDEO is not a problem in your car.



Again, thank you for you info! I was afraid that this was the case. I suspected that the foaming was due to a gross overfill or a malfunctioning swirl pot(s) in the sump. My questions got batted-down when asked; the foaming had to be because T6 was BAAAAAAD. The JG DT40 has been stated to not be suitable for any track use due to its low flash point (among other things). For what it costs, I'm not impressed. I have used the HDEO oils in my lawnmower, generator, and an older subaru impreza to great effect....so it was mildly shocking to hear how they were suddenly inadequate and, in the case of T6, flawed. I know the boosted Subie crowd has seen much success, over the last several years, with using T6. And this in a lot of cars that are putting serious power to the ground.


Originally Posted By: Garak
Doug Hillary has posted extensively about the use of Delvac 1 in Porsche engines over the years.


Garak, thank you for opining. Doug's word carries significant weight with me. Thank you for the heads up; I'll conduct a forum search of his posts.
_________________________
1999 Porsche 911 Cab 3.4 6-speed -> Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 ESP (CJ4) -> Fram Ultra XG3675

2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R -> M1 0w-40 FS -> Fram Ultra XG3593A

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#4443640 - 06/28/17 10:13 AM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: BufordTJustice]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9418
Loc: Upper Midwest
One really wonders how M1 0W-40 obtains A40 when it is apparently so inferior.

Is A40 an inferior specification?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 227K
1996 Honda Accord, 262K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 394K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 267K

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#4443657 - 06/28/17 10:33 AM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: kschachn]
BufordTJustice Offline


Registered: 11/17/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Middle Florida
Originally Posted By: kschachn
One really wonders how M1 0W-40 obtains A40 when it is apparently so inferior.

Is A40 an inferior specification?


This is certainly a question I've asked. I honestly do not know. The A40 test protocol has been posted here before, and it seem quite rigorous. But, Porsche seems to be disconnected in this manner from their user base. They rec 10k-15k oil change intervals, where a large body of UOA reports suggest 5k or less is optimal.

I know that the M96 engine seems to not be well served by the current A40 spec, but that Porsche seems reticent to develop a legacy standard for the M96 engine in addition to the current legacy standards (however unofficial) for the Metzger air cooled cars (993 and earlier). Those cars benefit heavily from thicker oil and shorter oil change intervals. Despite water cooling, it seems that the M96 benefits from this as well, but cannot go as heavy due to the VarioCam system showing errors when viscosity is too high.

I wonder aloud whether the A40 standard serves the climate of Germany (Stuttgart/Zuffenhausen) better than the Southern US? Especially when people like Doug Hillary (who has done a tiny bit of racing, lol) have demonstrated superior performance with oils that have much higher KV100.

Things we know for sure: the A40 spec does not address fuel dilution over the long term....and apparently viscosity loss. Now, is this the spec's fault or Porsche's fault for recommending OCI's that are absurdly long (to comply with Euro green standards)?


Edited by BufordTJustice (06/28/17 10:34 AM)
_________________________
1999 Porsche 911 Cab 3.4 6-speed -> Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 ESP (CJ4) -> Fram Ultra XG3675

2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R -> M1 0w-40 FS -> Fram Ultra XG3593A

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#4443701 - 06/28/17 11:08 AM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: kschachn]
NewYorkBuck Offline


Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 40
Loc: NY, NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
One really wonders how M1 0W-40 obtains A40 when it is apparently so inferior.

Is A40 an inferior specification?



Not sure if its "inferior" as opposed to "not necessarily the best option."


Myself, I decided to switch out of the 0W-40 based on the writings/recommendations of a well respected 996TT guru over on Rennlist as well as Doug Hillary. Like other 996TT owners, I had some IMS rattle at low RPMs and wanted to quiet the engine and provide the best protection possible. Moving to Delvac 5W-40 helped quite a bit. Then, after reading some more postings of UOAs and experiences of guys who went to the 300V, I decided to try it myself. Of course YMMV, but the Motul has significantly surpassed the Delvac in terms of noise and UOA wear.

One thing to remember is what was recommended for an engine during its nascent stage is very often not what turns out to be the best option as more and more is learned about the engine as it ages. One example that comes to mind is the cam issue regarding the last version of the VW TDI. VW recommended 505.01 only, and as data came in, it seemed that ANY oil that was a 5W-30 had a higher incidence of cam failure. This led to many TDI owners (me included at the time) switching to non 505.01 Rotella T6 or M1 TDT. I had that car for 125k and my cam always checked out just fine.

Of course, there is also the legal implications of a manufacturer changing oil recommendations later in a cars life. IMO, most manufacturers don't really care all that much about the cost to fix their cars out of warranty. Ergo, if my IMS fails in my 2004 Porsche, I don't think Porsche AG at this point will care all that much.


Edited by NewYorkBuck (06/28/17 11:09 AM)

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#4443870 - 06/28/17 01:04 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: BufordTJustice]
1JZ_E46 Offline


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1229
Loc: Oregon
I have always held that diesel oils are not the best option for high-RPM gas engines due to foaming, as gas engines operate at 2-3x the RPM of a diesel engine. DT40 is an impressive oil and Flat6 has the data to prove it. I also don't think you can go wrong with 300V, either. Probably the best streetable racing oil on the market.
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 105K: Castrol EDGE 0W-40, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 45K: Castrol EDGE 0W-30, Mann

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#4443945 - 06/28/17 02:00 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: 1JZ_E46]
BufordTJustice Offline


Registered: 11/17/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Middle Florida
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
I have always held that diesel oils are not the best option for high-RPM gas engines due to foaming, as gas engines operate at 2-3x the RPM of a diesel engine. DT40 is an impressive oil and Flat6 has the data to prove it. I also don't think you can go wrong with 300V, either. Probably the best streetable racing oil on the market.


I had heard about the same issues, but have never actually met any Subaru WRX/STI/boosted BRZ owner who has ever had an issue with T6 usage, even during drift competitions, HPDE's, AutoX, or actual track days. My neighbor two doors down was just test driving a 2016 WRX with an engine he built...puts 300HP to the wheels. He has been running T6 for ~10k miles and foaming has never been an issue for AutoX work in that car....and he has been actively checking for it.

For an HDEO that has anti-foaming agents, and based on Doug Hillary's experience, I am just not seeing any hard data that it's an actual issue. I respect Jake Raby, but he's not an unbiased third party. He's a very experienced, very well informed, Porsche engine builder, but he, too, has a product to sell now. But, especially for Delo 400 LE 5w-40 (which has agents present to address foaming), I am just not seeing evidence past Jake's anecdotal comment. An overfill by a half quart too much can cause aeration/foam via the crank sloshing through the oil....with ANY oil.

Now, I'm sure Jake has some concrete experiences to back that up, but I've discovered through research today that there are lots of air cooled owners who have used T6/Delo/Delvac 1 in the cooler months on track....and oil foaming has simply not been an issue for them, either.

Lastly, my google fu being better in the last few hours, there are also many motorcycle riders who use T6 and Delo without any aeration issues at all. Smaller sumps, and TWICE the RPM that my 911 can turn before self-disassembly occurs.....yet no aeration/foaming issues.

And now BMW owners who use the stuff for performance driving.....again, without issue.

I'm just beginning to see a trend now.
_________________________
1999 Porsche 911 Cab 3.4 6-speed -> Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 ESP (CJ4) -> Fram Ultra XG3675

2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R -> M1 0w-40 FS -> Fram Ultra XG3593A

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#4444015 - 06/28/17 03:11 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: BufordTJustice]
1JZ_E46 Offline


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1229
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: BufordTJustice
I had heard about the same issues, but have never actually met any Subaru WRX/STI/boosted BRZ owner who has ever had an issue with T6 usage, even during drift competitions, HPDE's, AutoX, or actual track days. My neighbor two doors down was just test driving a 2016 WRX with an engine he built...puts 300HP to the wheels. He has been running T6 for ~10k miles and foaming has never been an issue for AutoX work in that car....and he has been actively checking for it.

For an HDEO that has anti-foaming agents, and based on Doug Hillary's experience, I am just not seeing any hard data that it's an actual issue. I respect Jake Raby, but he's not an unbiased third party. He's a very experienced, very well informed, Porsche engine builder, but he, too, has a product to sell now. But, especially for Delo 400 LE 5w-40 (which has agents present to address foaming), I am just not seeing evidence past Jake's anecdotal comment. An overfill by a half quart too much can cause aeration/foam via the crank sloshing through the oil....with ANY oil.

Now, I'm sure Jake has some concrete experiences to back that up, but I've discovered through research today that there are lots of air cooled owners who have used T6/Delo/Delvac 1 in the cooler months on track....and oil foaming has simply not been an issue for them, either.

Lastly, my google fu being better in the last few hours, there are also many motorcycle riders who use T6 and Delo without any aeration issues at all. Smaller sumps, and TWICE the RPM that my 911 can turn before self-disassembly occurs.....yet no aeration/foaming issues.

And now BMW owners who use the stuff for performance driving.....again, without issue.

I'm just beginning to see a trend now.


I think you're on to something here, and probably safe to say HDEO oils (with anti-foaming agents) are fine for gas engines. I just think there are better options. HDEO use in a performance gas engine just seems like a rudimentary solution to a problem. However, for people operating on the cheap with limited resources (like many in the enthusiast community) certain HDEOs appear to be a good fit.
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 105K: Castrol EDGE 0W-40, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 45K: Castrol EDGE 0W-30, Mann

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#4444078 - 06/28/17 04:08 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: 1JZ_E46]
BufordTJustice Offline


Registered: 11/17/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Middle Florida
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
I think you're on to something here, and probably safe to say HDEO oils (with anti-foaming agents) are fine for gas engines. I just think there are better options. HDEO use in a performance gas engine just seems like a rudimentary solution to a problem. However, for people operating on the cheap with limited resources (like many in the enthusiast community) certain HDEOs appear to be a good fit.


Better? Sure.

But not for anywhere near the price of HDEO Full Syn oils. And, as to how much better, well that's a good question.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14792683&postcount=29

The entire thread is populated with BMW users, putting TONS of mileage on their cars with T6...and driving the snot out of them while doing it. Not to mention all google is showing regarding HDEO use in motorcycles; which is fairly prolific.

To bring the conversation full circle, it seems that HDEOs such as T6, Delo 400 LE, Delvac 1 ESP, et al can offer better engine protection for the M96 engine (via higher HTHS, higher KV100, and higher ZDDP content) at an equivalent cost compared to std A40 spec Mobil 1 0w-40 if coupons are clipped or deals had.

With the help of all here, I think the question has been answered: quality, full syn 5w-40 HDEOs that meet the CAT ECF-3, Cummins CES 20081, MB 228.31 and API SN/SM certs do not have any inherent foaming/aeration issues in high RPM engines and are suitable for use in the M96 over shorter drain intervals (even though many BMW owners have been taking their N54 engines past 10k OCIs).

Here's a c&p from the above linked thread:

"Running T6 since 2009/2010
Personal vehicles:
-e36 325i with 190k - totaled in 2012
-e46 323i with 230k - sold in 2016
-e90 335i with 80k - owned since 2013 - about 50k on T6
-VW 2.0t with 130k - owned since 2007 - about 70k on T6
"

And another post from the same thread:

"Just wanted to say I use this on my fathers x5 that has 270k. Owned it since new in 2003. I use this oil on my e36 m3 S52 as well. Use it in my mothers e46 with 150k. This oil is great with the N54 engines."

Another poster is using it in their Honda CBR600 RR, and has been for a while. If aeration/foaming were an issue, THAT ENGINE would show it....especially with the small sump and 14k+ RPM redline.


Edited by BufordTJustice (06/28/17 04:17 PM)
_________________________
1999 Porsche 911 Cab 3.4 6-speed -> Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 ESP (CJ4) -> Fram Ultra XG3675

2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R -> M1 0w-40 FS -> Fram Ultra XG3593A

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#4444098 - 06/28/17 04:33 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: BufordTJustice]
1JZ_E46 Offline


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1229
Loc: Oregon
I agree with everything in your post above. You reiterated what I said, just in more words. I think my point still stands, HDEO is a solid option, but there are better, albeit much more expense, options on the market. You don't see Le Mans cars running HDEOs, and they do run off the shelf oils.
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 105K: Castrol EDGE 0W-40, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 45K: Castrol EDGE 0W-30, Mann

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#4444316 - 06/28/17 09:02 PM Re: HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming [Re: 1JZ_E46]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24620
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
It isn't as big of a deal these days, but remember at one time, Euro type oils were only available in 1 quart containers, which weren't as cost effective as a gallon of a synthetic HDEO. Obviously, things have changed over the years, even up here in Canada, where at least two decent Euro lubes are available in jugs and at the same price as ordinary synthetics.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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