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Low SAPS oil question #4419816
06/01/17 09:41 AM
06/01/17 09:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
loneryder Offline OP
loneryder  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
On my 08 MB ML 320cdi, I've been running the Mobil 1 5-40esp since I've had it. My last batch is in it currently. This is the last year before "Blue" was introduced. MB wants everybody to go to a xx-30esp. After reading the attached article, I'm thinking of going to a 15-40 CK oil. The Mobil ESP oils run about .6 ash content. The 15-40 diesel oils seem to run about 1 ash content and are stated to protect emissions systems. So my question is, does the difference between .6 and 1 ash content really matter in my engine. It has 92k on it and I want it to last a long time. Stickers on top of the engine say to use 229.31 or 228.51 oils. I've always used the 229.51. My indy mechanic told me they put wrong stickers on some of them but I'm thinking this car was built just before 229.51 oils came out. What say you Bitoger's?
http://www.stephensservice.com/bluetec-diesel-issuesproblems/

Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: loneryder] #4419819
06/01/17 09:45 AM
06/01/17 09:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,637
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,637
Great Lakes
I would stick with something that meets mb 229.51... it's a higher quality spec, even more stringent than 229.31.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: loneryder] #4419872
06/01/17 10:45 AM
06/01/17 10:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
From the linked article...
"Mercedes & others, make it sound like “Low SAPS” is some super duper oil that’s better for your diesel engine. The MB229.52 5W/30 oil Mercedes “recommends”, vaporizes much easier when it gets hot than a 20W/60 oil. "

I'm sure 20W-60 oil has the potential for a low NOACK, but low SAPS (0.6%) M1 5W30 ESP has about 6% NOACK loss. It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4419879
06/01/17 10:56 AM
06/01/17 10:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
loneryder Offline OP
loneryder  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
From the linked article...
"Mercedes & others, make it sound like “Low SAPS” is some super duper oil that’s better for your diesel engine. The MB229.52 5W/30 oil Mercedes “recommends”, vaporizes much easier when it gets hot than a 20W/60 oil. "

I'm sure 20W-60 oil has the potential for a low NOACK, but low SAPS (0.6%) M1 5W30 ESP has about 6% NOACK loss. It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

I've never seen a 20-60 oil but use 20-50 in my Harley. He does suggest 15-40 with a 5k oci. I agree with you about oci's. I ran 9k on the Mobil 1 5-40 once and the iron was high so I do about 5k now.

Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4419887
06/01/17 11:08 AM
06/01/17 11:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,637
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,637
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

We are talking about diesel fuel here specifically. As far as I recall, we've had ULSD here for quite some time now, so rapid TBN depletion should not be an issue. Gasoline would be another story.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: loneryder] #4420014
06/01/17 01:31 PM
06/01/17 01:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 27
Poland
Bobby_x Offline
Bobby_x  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 27
Poland
All that low or mid saps buzz is about protecting dpf from oil leaking into exhaust
If your engine eats hardly the oil or dpf is absent, use full saps with no worries
MB calls for mid saps 0.8% so 1.0% is almost perfect smile


Bobby
07 Yaris 1.3 vvti mix of 5w30 + Alco sp-991 filter
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: Quattro Pete] #4420102
06/01/17 03:04 PM
06/01/17 03:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

We are talking about diesel fuel here specifically. As far as I recall, we've had ULSD here for quite some time now, so rapid TBN depletion should not be an issue. Gasoline would be another story.


Sorry, thought we were still "dirtier" than Europe on diesel but am basically ignorant on that topic...


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: loneryder] #4420377
06/01/17 07:44 PM
06/01/17 07:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
loneryder Offline OP
loneryder  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: loneryder] #4420490
06/01/17 11:18 PM
06/01/17 11:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,567
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,567
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4420491
06/01/17 11:19 PM
06/01/17 11:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,567
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,567
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
From the linked article...
"Mercedes & others, make it sound like “Low SAPS” is some super duper oil that’s better for your diesel engine. The MB229.52 5W/30 oil Mercedes “recommends”, vaporizes much easier when it gets hot than a 20W/60 oil. "

I'm sure 20W-60 oil has the potential for a low NOACK, but low SAPS (0.6%) M1 5W30 ESP has about 6% NOACK loss. It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

That is not an issue when it comes to U.S. diesel.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: loneryder] #4420534
06/02/17 02:43 AM
06/02/17 02:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,258
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,258
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: loneryder
So my question is, does the difference between .6 and 1 ash content really matter in my engine. It has 92k on it and I want it to last a long time. Stickers on top of the engine say to use 229.31 or 228.51 oils.

Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 CJ-4/SN E6, E7, E9 is 228.51.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: edyvw] #4420547
06/02/17 03:53 AM
06/02/17 03:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 794
UK
weasley Offline
weasley  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 794
UK
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.


Regen does not get rid of ash at all. The regen process overheats the DPF and burns away the soot, which is particulate matter created by the incomplete burning of the fuel (the smoke that diesels make) - this soot is largely carbon and will therefore burn. The ash from burning the engine oil is mostly metal oxides (from elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc and any other metals in the additives) - these will not burn away in the regen - they are staying there. Over time they accumulate and will eventually block the DPF permanently. This is why lower ash oils are specified, to reduce the ash build-up in the DPF, ideally to a level that means the DPF life will outlive the car (or, at least, outlive the first owner wink )

Of course the amount of ash depends also on how much oil the engine burns, as well as what elements are in it. However, given the same oil consumption rate and process, a lower ash oil will always put less ash in the DPF than a full-ash one. If the DPF gets more ash-loaded then it will regen more often, trying (and failing) to clear it out - the regen process puts more fuel through the engine, potentially leading to higher fuel consumption, higher fuel dilution, bore washing and so on.

Last edited by weasley; 06/02/17 03:54 AM.

2017 SEAT Leon 1.4 EcoTSI 150 FR Technology DSG
2018 Volvo XC60 D4
2011 KTM 990 SMT
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: weasley] #4420727
06/02/17 08:54 AM
06/02/17 08:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,567
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,567
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.


Regen does not get rid of ash at all. The regen process overheats the DPF and burns away the soot, which is particulate matter created by the incomplete burning of the fuel (the smoke that diesels make) - this soot is largely carbon and will therefore burn. The ash from burning the engine oil is mostly metal oxides (from elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc and any other metals in the additives) - these will not burn away in the regen - they are staying there. Over time they accumulate and will eventually block the DPF permanently. This is why lower ash oils are specified, to reduce the ash build-up in the DPF, ideally to a level that means the DPF life will outlive the car (or, at least, outlive the first owner wink )

Of course the amount of ash depends also on how much oil the engine burns, as well as what elements are in it. However, given the same oil consumption rate and process, a lower ash oil will always put less ash in the DPF than a full-ash one. If the DPF gets more ash-loaded then it will regen more often, trying (and failing) to clear it out - the regen process puts more fuel through the engine, potentially leading to higher fuel consumption, higher fuel dilution, bore washing and so on.

Regen burns soot and ash since ash regularly ends in DPF due to NOACK. Of course, regen will not be able to get rid of ash as good as soot, but there is constant pollution of DPF by ash due to regular oil evaporation loss. Lower the NOACK, better for DPF.
Of course, if car burns oil due to some failure like oil piston rings or valve stems, well that is different thing.
Also, city vs. HWY driving plays big role in DPF longevity.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: edyvw] #4420756
06/02/17 09:09 AM
06/02/17 09:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
loneryder Offline OP
loneryder  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 611
WV
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.


Regen does not get rid of ash at all. The regen process overheats the DPF and burns away the soot, which is particulate matter created by the incomplete burning of the fuel (the smoke that diesels make) - this soot is largely carbon and will therefore burn. The ash from burning the engine oil is mostly metal oxides (from elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc and any other metals in the additives) - these will not burn away in the regen - they are staying there. Over time they accumulate and will eventually block the DPF permanently. This is why lower ash oils are specified, to reduce the ash build-up in the DPF, ideally to a level that means the DPF life will outlive the car (or, at least, outlive the first owner wink )

Of course the amount of ash depends also on how much oil the engine burns, as well as what elements are in it. However, given the same oil consumption rate and process, a lower ash oil will always put less ash in the DPF than a full-ash one. If the DPF gets more ash-loaded then it will regen more often, trying (and failing) to clear it out - the regen process puts more fuel through the engine, potentially leading to higher fuel consumption, higher fuel dilution, bore washing and so on.

Regen burns soot and ash since ash regularly ends in DPF due to NOACK. Of course, regen will not be able to get rid of ash as good as soot, but there is constant pollution of DPF by ash due to regular oil evaporation loss. Lower the NOACK, better for DPF.
Of course, if car burns oil due to some failure like oil piston rings or valve stems, well that is different thing.
Also, city vs. HWY driving plays big role in DPF longevity.

What you guys are talking about is protecting the DPF. I want to protect my engine like the article says. My engine doesn't use any oil on a 5k oic. When I went 9k, it used about a third of a qt. When I drive it, I go usually over 50 miles mostly hwy driving. Doesn't a 15-40 oil have a lower NOACK than these 5-30's? Wouldn't there be less oil fumes to blow thru the turbo and burn downstream?

Re: Low SAPS oil question [Re: loneryder] #4420792
06/02/17 09:50 AM
06/02/17 09:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,637
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,637
Great Lakes
I think you will be hard pressed to find a 15w40 oil that has Noack as low as m1 esp 5w30.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
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