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5w-20; Ford 4.6L engines; UOA testing #4389122
04/26/17 05:17 AM
04/26/17 05:17 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline OP
dnewton3  Offline OP
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
Here are two UOAs from our cars at home. These are both 4.6L MGM cars; one an '05 and the other an '07, both identically equipped. My wife and I both drive nearly identical routes to work; about 32 miles each way and we only diverge in the last mile (she goes east and I go west). Because she occasionally works from home, I even drive her car to balance out the miles. One was run on dino oil; the other car was run on synthetic.

Tell me, if you can, which sample is the syn and which the dino oil? Which is a brand-name lube and which a house brand? Tell me, if you think you can discern from the data, how many miles did I run each lube; did I run both the same amount, or one of them half of the other? How many miles are on the cars; are they similar or is there a large disparity in accumulated miles? What filters did I run? Did I "over-run" the OEM recommended O/FCI? Did I run the filters for a longer or shorter duration than the lube? Which used more make-up oil, or were they they same? It's OK to guess, but that's not very definitive. If you believe you know, then state WHY you feel your answer is right; what data proves your assertion correct?

Obviously there is a method to my madness here. Most of you know how I like to test the boundaries and shatter myths. I'm trying to get some of you oil bigots to quit staring at the bottle label, and rather look at the results. Quit focusing on VOAs and brand names, and pay attention to the data you pay for in UOAs. What goes into a bottle is not nearly as important as what comes out of the crankcase.

I'll be on vacation the next few days, away from the computer. I'll let you all discuss it and I will return this weekend to tell you which is which, and edit the fields to give the detailed info.



Html:
UOA sample #	A	B	
Brand		RK	Peak
type		dino	syn
grade 		5w-20	5w-20
filter		TG	TG
Oil miles	10k	10k
Veh miles	90k     230k
make up oil	1.2	2.4


						Blackstone Data 		
						w/ macro analysis		
				 		Univ	std		
						Avg	dev			
						@ 5.2k

Al		3	3			4	1.1	
Cr		1	0			1	.5	
Fe		10	6			15	9.5	
Cu		1	5			5	2.9	
Pb		0	0			2	.3	
Tn		0	0
Moly		37	65
Ni		0	0
Mang		0	0
Silver		0	0
Ti		0	0
Potas		2	1
Boron		2	43
Si		14	10
Sodium		4	14
Calcium		2013	1942
Magn		15	20
Phos		612	615
Zinc		707	686
Barium		0	0


									
Sus V @ 210 	51.8	54.9
cSt V @ 100 C 	7.82	8.73
FP 		415	435
Fuel		<.5	<.5
Antifreeze	0	0
Water		0	0
Insol		.2	.3
TBN			
TAN			


Last edited by dnewton3; 12/06/17 05:38 AM. Reason: updated thread title

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4389129
04/26/17 05:30 AM
04/26/17 05:30 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,429
quebec canada
yvon_la Offline
yvon_la  Offline
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,429
quebec canada
A is dino b is synth


Truck driver
Nissan versa note s 2014 total classic 5w30(qc.ca) drivework oil filter
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4389144
04/26/17 05:58 AM
04/26/17 05:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 325
TX
mooferz Offline
mooferz  Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 325
TX
Yup, VI of 117 vs 136.


2001 Lexus ES300, 235k mi, German Castrol 0w-40, Fram TG8316
1985 BMW R80RT (1L)- M1 15w-50
1993 Volvo 945 Turbo- Rotella T5 10W-30 (CJ-4)
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: mooferz] #4389176
04/26/17 06:46 AM
04/26/17 06:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,740
Rochester, NY
NateDN10 Offline
NateDN10  Offline
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,740
Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: mooferz
Yup, VI of 117 vs 136.

How do you know this? I don't see any lower temp viscosity numbers, only 100C/212F numbers.


2016 Mazda3 - 20,000 mi.
2011 Toyota Sienna - 100,000 mi.
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4389207
04/26/17 07:29 AM
04/26/17 07:29 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,551
ROCHESTER, NY
Char Baby Offline
Char Baby  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,551
ROCHESTER, NY
Yes indeed this is difficult to tell as all numbers are too close. And having worked in a lab doing testing myself, these numbers could change slightly(though not necessarily switch) if run again.

A: Name brand syn/Hav
B: House brand dino/AAP

Very hard to tell even when using PQIA site as reference. It's a guessing game and has been fun. Thanks for the test! wink

Last edited by Char Baby; 04/26/17 07:30 AM.

"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic LX
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4389233
04/26/17 08:01 AM
04/26/17 08:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,472
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,472
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: dnewton3




Html:
UOA sample #	A	B	
Brand		*	*
type		*	*
grade 		5w-20	5w-20
filter		*	*
Oil miles	*	*
Veh miles	*       *
make up oil	*	*


						Blackstone Data 		
						w/ macro analysis		
				 		Univ	std		
						Avg	dev			
						@ 5.2k

Al		3	3			4	1.1	
Cr		1	0			1	.5	
Fe		10	6			15	9.5	
Cu		1	5			5	2.9	
Pb		0	0			2	.3	
Tn		0	0
Moly		37	65
Ni		0	0
Mang		0	0
Silver		0	0
Ti		0	0
Potas		2	1
Boron		2	43
Si		14	10
Sodium		4	14
Calcium		2013	1942
Magn		15	20
Phos		612	615
Zinc		707	686
Barium		0	0


									
Sus V @ 210 	51.8	54.9
cSt V @ 100 C 	7.82	8.73
FP 		415	435
Fuel		<.5	<.5
Antifreeze	0	0
Water		0	0
Insol		.2	.3
TBN			
TAN			


a )A is dino. B is synthetic cos of better add packs in higher Mo and Boron ppm as well as higher FP.

b )Dino A has lower OCI of (guessing) 8-10K miles, cos of
-lower residual [email protected]*C of 7.82 cSt indicating viscosity shear thinning (from typically virgin 8.5 cSt)
-despite no fuel dilution issue, and
-insolubles of 0.2 ;
-10 ppm Fe

c )Synthetic B has higher OCI of (guessing)14-16 K miles, cos of
-oxidative thickening as shown by increased residual [email protected]*C of 8.73 cSt from (guessing virgin 8.5 cSt) and
-strictly no fuel dilution issues , and
-higher insolubles of 0.3 indicating prolonged OCI, and
-6 ppm Fe.

Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4389308
04/26/17 09:52 AM
04/26/17 09:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,727
Texas
FZ1 Offline
FZ1  Offline
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,727
Texas
I know enough to know I don't know. Looking forward to the results.

Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4389469
04/26/17 12:56 PM
04/26/17 12:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,255
CA
CharlieBauer Online content
CharlieBauer  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,255
CA
A basic UOA is not going to reveal comprehensive insight about an oils performance. Additionally, although the driving route is the same, that doesn't make this a controlled experiment.

And the bottle label is worth staring at because it tells you the specs the oil meets and more and more specs require synthetic oil to meet increasing performance requirements.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4389600
04/26/17 03:01 PM
04/26/17 03:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,727
Buffalo, NY
Nickdfresh Offline
Nickdfresh  Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,727
Buffalo, NY
All 5W-20's are syn-blends IMHO..

Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4390100
04/27/17 05:48 AM
04/27/17 05:48 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,551
ROCHESTER, NY
Char Baby Offline
Char Baby  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,551
ROCHESTER, NY
At first, I may have thought that "B" would have been the synthetic oil when only comparing this posts "A" & "B" oils. However after reviewing thr PQIA site on VOA 5W20 oils listed all in a row, it is difficult to tell VOAs & UOAs. I'm sticking with my:

"A" is the name brand syn
"B" is house brand dino


"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic LX
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4391224
04/28/17 09:53 AM
04/28/17 09:53 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline OP
dnewton3  Offline OP
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
info updated 4-28-178 at 11:45 EST; check the lead post for the data reveal



The Rural King dino is $1.59/qrt every day walk-in price. The Peak is $2.99/qrt locally. Considering that both oils are within the 1st stdev of "normal" wear, they are essentially doing the same job. The OEM OCI for the 2005 is 5k miles, but in 2007 Ford upped the OCI to 7.5k miles, yet there were no changes in the design or equipment manufacture. Both oils here were run to 10k miles. And yet there is a ton of life left in the lubes; neither is anywhere near a condemnation point.

Two points to understand from this data:
1) the OEM OCIs are grossly conservative
2) for these conditions there is no benefit to running a syn; it cannot pay for itself because it did nothing statistically significant in terms of wear control to justify the cost differential


Last edited by dnewton3; 04/28/17 09:57 AM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4391581
04/28/17 05:25 PM
04/28/17 05:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 552
South OZ
KL31 Offline
KL31  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 552
South OZ
Will you do another UOA using the same oils but swapping cars? It would be interesting to see if the results are the same or if the dino has more wear on the higher mileage car. And also how much make up oil the higher mileage car uses on dino as it did use more than its lower mileage comparison.

Edit:

No offense but this is hardly shattering any myths at all unless you run a mirror UOA swapping the oil brand of each car and repeat. For all we know, the results may be that the high mileage vehicle will drink the dino and or have even higher wear as it's probably more worn out. The results may be similar once again and you may be 100% right. But the test conditions are not identical, they're very very similar and that's great. But one has more than double the miles on it so that's a large varying factor right there.

Last edited by KL31; 04/28/17 05:32 PM.

95 MX-3 2.5L|Shell Helix Ultra 5W40|Wix 51356
04 Focus 1.8L|Wesfil Cooper WZ63|Valvoline MST 5W30
05 Kluger 3.3L|Wesfil Cooper WZ418|Magnatec 10W30 Semi Syn
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4391669
04/28/17 07:27 PM
04/28/17 07:27 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline OP
dnewton3  Offline OP
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,624
Indianapolis, IN
Testing is continuing; yes.

The points I made are valid.

1) OEM OCIs are ultra conservative, typically. Neither lube was anywhere near compromised. This is certainly not true of all conditions for all equipment; one must test to understand where they are at. This clearly shows I have no reason to OCI at 5k or even 7.5k miles. 15k miles would be easily done.

2) Macro data shows both are both below "normal" wear, and the variation is well within standard deviation. The typical up/down nuances of any UOA series are greater than the numbers both units and both lubes exhibited. I don't have nearly enough data to do micro analysis on either; macro data is both convenient and poignant.

The use of each is certainly similar enough to disregard it's variation in macro data; that's the beauty of large sample groups as it normalizes environmental and use factors.

Last edited by dnewton3; 04/28/17 07:42 PM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: dnewton3] #4392336
04/29/17 04:11 PM
04/29/17 04:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 552
South OZ
KL31 Offline
KL31  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 552
South OZ
Good to hear that you will continue tests. So each car will be doing 64 miles per day. Approx 1200 per month. 10k before xmas maybe? Will be interesting to see the next results.

I'm assuming mostly highway.

I agree with your points. Just still undecided on whether the dino is producing the same results until it is swapped to the other engine. Even if within a small margin, if the syn continues to show slightly lower wear numbers on each car, then it can be concluded that it is protecting better, even if only by a small margin. For some people, all the 1% here and there add up and are worth it for them.

As nickdfresh did state though, I'm not sure 5w20 can even be 100% dino. If not, then it is semi syn as a minimum, which explains the relatively close results. Your point I'd very true in that the cost does not justify the results. I wish I could find $1.59 per quart oil!

Also was there a TBN or am I going more blind?


95 MX-3 2.5L|Shell Helix Ultra 5W40|Wix 51356
04 Focus 1.8L|Wesfil Cooper WZ63|Valvoline MST 5W30
05 Kluger 3.3L|Wesfil Cooper WZ418|Magnatec 10W30 Semi Syn
Re: 5w-20; MGM 4.6L engines; UOA testing [Re: KL31] #4392488
04/29/17 07:05 PM
04/29/17 07:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,413
America's Dairyland
LotI Offline
LotI  Offline
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,413
America's Dairyland
I would think the greater amount of makeup in the higher-mileage synthetic car would greatly skew the TBN


03 Honda Interceptor
11 Kawasaki KLR 650
12 Ford E450
17 VW GTI
[IMG]http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-us/803455.png[/IMG]
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