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Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? #4299159
01/10/17 09:38 PM
01/10/17 09:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
Tomcat728 Offline OP
Tomcat728  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
I have a 2012 Mercedes Benz GL 350 that suffered a timing chain failure at 63k. Fortunately it was covered under the CPO warranty. My friend with the same model waited too long to address the start up clatter and wiped out the engine...again fortunately under CPO warranty. I have read a number of other post indicating similar issues with premature timing chain wear on the Bluetec 3.0 V-6 diesel engine. Incidentally I had no such failures on our 07 GL 350 with 160k miles on it.

Is it possible that extended OCI combined with the move from 229.5 to 229.51 for the DPF equipped Bluetec can be contributing to these failures? This spec change dropped Zn from 1100 PPM to 900 PPM, HTHS from 3.7 to 3.6, phosphorus from 1000 PPM to 800 PPM, and sulfated ash from 900 PPM to 600 PPM. We could get a decent 5W40 and 5W30 in 229.5 and 229.51 until recently when is was all superseded by the 0W30.

Will 229.52 with even lower typical TBN, HTHS and vicosity (for the dealer used Mobil 1 ESP 0W30) be even more harmful? Mobil 1 does not list a flash point for the ESP 0W30, the SDS just states "Greater that 200"...the 5W30 was 254!

I am concerned that these aspects plus the higher and higher operating temperatures to gain fuel economy and reduced emissions are having a detrimental effect on our engine life.

I have found a Lucas 229.52 rated oil in a 10W60 weight (which is listed in the owner's manual as acceptable) that I am intrigued with based on the fact that I tow, have extended city driving and considerable hot weather driving. Any experience with this oil?

Am I just being paranoid?

I just bought a CPO 2014 GL 350 and want to get off on the right foot with this one and plan to put several hundred thousand miles on it.


2014 MB GL 350 Bluetec
2003 GMC HD 2500 Duramax
2011 Saab 9-3
2008 Saab 9-3
2000 Porsche 911 C2
1973 Porsche 914 2.0
2008 Formula 260 BR
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4299162
01/10/17 09:45 PM
01/10/17 09:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,418
Minnesota
bioburner Offline
bioburner  Offline
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,418
Minnesota
Sounds more like a engineering failure. The 2.2 engine of Chevy has a poor timing chain tension system and starts to fail close to 150k. Sore subject as I had check engine light come on dealer could not figure it out and then the warranty was up too. They have a upgrade and MB probably will have to figure out the problem too.



97 Ford E350 D,99 F350 dually D
13 Scion Xb
12 Ford Transit Connect
06 Nissan Xterra
03 K1200 BMW
07 Kawasaki KLR650
13 Madass
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4299163
01/10/17 09:51 PM
01/10/17 09:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,553
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,553
Idaho
Could it be the extended oil change intervals?


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4299170
01/10/17 10:00 PM
01/10/17 10:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,137
NE,Ohio
Rand Offline
Rand  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,137
NE,Ohio
look at all the GM timing chain issues due to extended oci. (equinox, Cadillac etc)

I think you could make a case for all of the above perhaps contributing.
along with the actual engine design/engineering

How is DI and fuel dilution on those motors?

The GM fix? reducing the OCI.. well and replacing with updated parts.


2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk 2.0T
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4299187
01/10/17 10:41 PM
01/10/17 10:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,316
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Offline
Danno  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,316
Northern Ontario, Canada
I run about 120 Sprinters with the 3.0L Diesel 2011 - 2013. I spec OEM spec oil 229.51/52 and OEM oil filters.
They have up to 175,000 miles on them. We use a 12,000 mile OCI and are beat on in a commercial application.
Haven't had any timing chain failures.

Moved away from buying more as they become a money pit after warranty.
Ford Transit DRW chassis with the 3.2L Powerstroke is current spec.


2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2015 KIA RIO SX
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
2009 Venza V6 AWD
2013 Sonata 2.4L RIP in write-off crash
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4299218
01/11/17 12:10 AM
01/11/17 12:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,191
VA
bvance554 Offline
bvance554  Offline
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,191
VA
Busted timing chain on a MB with 63k miles? Extened drain interval or not I'd be extremely disappointed.

Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Danno] #4299275
01/11/17 05:21 AM
01/11/17 05:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
Tomcat728 Offline OP
Tomcat728  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
Very interesting. Do you mind sharing the brand and viscosity of the oil you are using in your Sprinters?

And just to confirm, these would be Bluetec engines with DPF and DEF, correct?

Thanks


2014 MB GL 350 Bluetec
2003 GMC HD 2500 Duramax
2011 Saab 9-3
2008 Saab 9-3
2000 Porsche 911 C2
1973 Porsche 914 2.0
2008 Formula 260 BR
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4299276
01/11/17 05:23 AM
01/11/17 05:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
Tomcat728 Offline OP
Tomcat728  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
Sorry, new to forum. My question on brand and viscosity of oil was for Danno with the fleet of 120 Sprinters. Thanks


2014 MB GL 350 Bluetec
2003 GMC HD 2500 Duramax
2011 Saab 9-3
2008 Saab 9-3
2000 Porsche 911 C2
1973 Porsche 914 2.0
2008 Formula 260 BR
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: CT8] #4299763
01/11/17 03:50 PM
01/11/17 03:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 666
Pindorama
Ohle_Manezzini Offline
Ohle_Manezzini  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 666
Pindorama
Originally Posted By: CT8
Could it be the extended oil change intervals?


Totally possible, since soot is abrasive.

Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Ohle_Manezzini] #4299792
01/11/17 04:25 PM
01/11/17 04:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,243
Rabbit Creek, Alaska
jayg Offline
jayg  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,243
Rabbit Creek, Alaska
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
Originally Posted By: CT8
Could it be the extended oil change intervals?


Totally possible, since soot is abrasive.


VW 2.0 CR TDI's aren't wearing our prematurely with absrasive soot in their Castrol SLX Gold 5w30. Even though they have a timing belt, they're still doing 10k intervals factory with no oil related issues on "thin" oil.

Sounds like an engineering issue more than oil. Lot's of German made diesels sold in the US have issues but oil rarely is the straw that breaks the camel's back. (HPFP, DPF, EGR, etc etc etc.)


2017 Ram 1500 Ecodiesel- CP Triton ECT 5w40
2015 Prius C Napa 0w20
1973 240Z 10w30 VWC from '73
1973 Triumph Bonneville 750 M1 5w50
1967 BSA 441 Victor Special M1 5w50




Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: jayg] #4299895
01/11/17 07:24 PM
01/11/17 07:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,546
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,546
Colorado Springs
Engineering issue. Nothing to do with HTHS and MB229.51 spec.
Maybe extended OCi, lot's of city driving.
I do in X5 35d 5K OCI using M1 5W30 ESP in colder months and Valvoline 5W40 MST in warmer months. I think once I use all Valvoline I am just going to stick to M1.
Also, I drive my car like I stole it and runs great.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4300338
01/12/17 10:34 AM
01/12/17 10:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 751
California's Wine Country
SLO_Town Offline
SLO_Town  Offline
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 751
California's Wine Country
Hello:

Mercedes Benz has long had a problem with timing chains and gears. Our 2006 C-class was part of an era with these issues. In the C-class case, it had nothing to so with oil. Take a close look at the picture. The teeth on the gear are nearly worn off because the gear was improperly engineered. Our Mercedes (bought new and meticulously maintained) was one of the worst vehicles I've ever owned. It was a total POS and had many serious flaws.

Scott

http://www.mercedesmedic.com/check-my-mercedes-benz-for-balance-shaft-issue-by-vin-m272273/


03 BMW 330Ci (Euro Castrol 0W-30)
10 Honda Element (Kendall GT1 Max 5W-30)
11 BMW 328i (Euro Castrol 0W-30)
15 Ford Focus (Redline 5W-20)
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Tomcat728] #4301174
01/13/17 08:39 AM
01/13/17 08:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,316
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Offline
Danno  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,316
Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tomcat728
Sorry, new to forum. My question on brand and viscosity of oil was for Danno with the fleet of 120 Sprinters. Thanks

Sorry, had to double check my spec sheet for PMs.

All I spec is 229.51 spec oil and OEM filter. I don't get more complicated than that.


2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2015 KIA RIO SX
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
2009 Venza V6 AWD
2013 Sonata 2.4L RIP in write-off crash
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: Danno] #4301403
01/13/17 01:42 PM
01/13/17 01:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
Tomcat728 Offline OP
Tomcat728  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI

OK, thanks. I'm still puzzled that the OM642 3.0 engine in the Sprinter with the DPF and DEF appears to be so much more reliable than the same engine with DPF and DEF in our Mercedes GL 350's. From what I can tell they are the same engine, is that correct?

I really like the GL and want to minimize the issues I have. We may have more cold starts and short trips than a non commercial vehicle, is that enough to explain the difference? Maybe we just don't drive them hard enough??

So I'm going to stick with the 229.51 oil (its a 2014 so that is OK) and OEM spec filters (Mann). I will likely add a DPF cleaner at oil changes and reduce my OCI to 5000 -6000 miles. I may do the BG 109 engine flush at my first oil change (just over 40,000 on the one I am buying) to clear out any sludge that may have built up in the first years with the 10,000 miles OCI. I may sneak in the BG Oil Conditioner. And I'm going to change the air filters every 20,000. Finally, I'm going to start getting Blackstone oil analysis to have real data.

We depend on our GL for business purposes and put on about 30,000 miles a year. While not as critical as the Sprinter duty, its a big deal to us and I need it ti be as reliable as possible.


2014 MB GL 350 Bluetec
2003 GMC HD 2500 Duramax
2011 Saab 9-3
2008 Saab 9-3
2000 Porsche 911 C2
1973 Porsche 914 2.0
2008 Formula 260 BR
Re: Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines? [Re: edyvw] #4301410
01/13/17 01:55 PM
01/13/17 01:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
Tomcat728 Offline OP
Tomcat728  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Midland MI
EdyVW- I can no longer find the Mobil 1 5W30 ESP from my regular sources, I am told it has been superseded with the Mobil 1 0W30 ESP with the 229.52 rating. The 0W30 seems to be the new "house" oil at the MB dealerships.

I'm leaning towards just using the Valvoline MST 5W40 year round, that 0W30 makes me nervous given I spend half the year in hot climates and do a fair amount to towing.


2014 MB GL 350 Bluetec
2003 GMC HD 2500 Duramax
2011 Saab 9-3
2008 Saab 9-3
2000 Porsche 911 C2
1973 Porsche 914 2.0
2008 Formula 260 BR
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