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Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob #4156392
07/20/16 08:17 PM
07/20/16 08:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 69
USA
phaphaphooey Offline OP
phaphaphooey  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 69
USA
All:

I am reposting this from the Alfa Romeo 4C forum as I would like to get the opinions of posters here as I can think of no other collection of individuals more knowledgeable about oil filters on the planet than can be found here. I did not author the original post but have contacted the author and encouraged him to participate in the discussion here. The performance of the filter, especially on this type of car/engine, is very troubling to me. Even more troubling is that, due to the newness of the vehicle and its niche status, there are no other options that I am aware of aside from this OEM Mann W6014 filter. All credit for this post goes to Clover on the Alfa Romeo 4C board. Without further adieu, see what you guys think:

Hi from Newcastle Australia,
this is my first post anywhere, ever, I hope you find it useful.

Having been a mechanic with my own workshop, in a past life,
and a car enthusiast for over 40 years specializing in Alfa, Honda and Lambo
and having completed many total resurrections, it was obvious to choose a 4C
as my first new car. However, rather than joining the waiting list, I bought a perfect
2500Km, white, coupe which met my specs exactly.....fantastic!

Believing in the need for early first oil changes I decided to change the oil and filter immediately
and picked up oil and a filter from Leichhardt when in Sydney.
Aus$76 told me that this filter must be something 'special'. It was a Mann W6014 and
looked very average but the specs gave a bypass pressure of 2.5 bar (35psi).
Almost all other filters have a 1bar bypass pressure. This raised lots of questions.
On further inspection I was alarmed to see that it had a plastic core with
a large open grid structure rather than a tubular steel core, with lots more smaller holes,
as in most filters. I predicted that the filter element could not be supported adequately
for the high bypass pressure.

Upon opening the old filter I found that the element had been compressed into
tight bunches aligned to, and with the same number as, the plastic support verticals.

At 2500Kms these bunches are tight enough when disassembled but when under
heat and pressure they will be much tighter and the oil flow will be very restricted
so the pressure across the filter will increase and the support will distort more
further restricting flow until the bypass opens. (All getting worse as the filter gets older).
At this point the engine is seeing oil at a pressure >35psi less than the feed pressure
and that oil is washing over the small, dirty, open sections of filter to get to the bypass
valve at the end.
Yes! the engine is being fed especially dirty oil at approx. 1/2 the normal pressure.

In my opinion, other than the 'special' price, the W6014 is a very ordinary oil filter
but with a high bypass pressure and design faults.
( We can discuss the bypass operation and why Alfa might have set it high later, I am not saying
that this is a fault on its own....)

I sent the info and filter to Mann Australia 1 month ago. It has been returned. Apparently there is
no great problem because there has not been a catastrophic failure yet, so the
complaint must go thru Alfa.

Meanwhile there is the great possibility that our cars will be suffering accelerated engine wear.

Am I being alarmist? Possibly....but I can't find any other filters collapsing and 4Cs deserve better!

It would be good if somebody with some involvement with Fiat Alfa could take this up with them.




2009 Porsche Carrera S
2013 Lotus Evora
2015 Volkswagen GTI
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156400
07/20/16 08:25 PM
07/20/16 08:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,161
USA
slacktide_bitog Offline
slacktide_bitog  Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,161
USA
A Mann Ecore!! A German Mann Ecore? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mad shoot oilburner

Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156407
07/20/16 08:35 PM
07/20/16 08:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,982
IL
Vern_in_IL Offline
Vern_in_IL  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,982
IL
Metal E-core, lol.


Last edited by Vern_in_IL; 07/20/16 08:39 PM.
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156492
07/20/16 10:23 PM
07/20/16 10:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 975
CO
Nederlander75 Offline
Nederlander75  Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 975
CO
I've had Mazda, Motorcraft, and Puraone do this with insert type elements. Nothing to worry about. UOAs came back fine and engines showed no indication of missed beat.

Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156511
07/20/16 10:57 PM
07/20/16 10:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,934
northern Alabama
benjamming Offline
benjamming  Offline
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,934
northern Alabama
I don't suppose that a UOA has been performed? That might prove helpful.

Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156523
07/20/16 11:56 PM
07/20/16 11:56 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 925
Frogland / Brittany
Popsy Offline
Popsy  Offline
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 925
Frogland / Brittany
I checked but it seems this MANN filter is the only one available for this car...cost 18 here.

I noticed since 2 or 3 years the Fiat/Alfa oem oil filters moved from "made in Italy" to "made in China", with loss of quality of course. Is this MANN filter really made in Germany?


96 Barchetta, Motul 300V 5W40 | 98 Barchetta, Quartz 9000 energy 5W40
05 Forfour 95, SHU 0W40 (gf's car) | 10 Colt Ralliart, 300V 0W40
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156525
07/21/16 12:15 AM
07/21/16 12:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,174
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,174
PNW
After reading "Clover's" comments about this filter, I have these comments:

Even though the bypass valve is set to 35 PSI and the pleats are wavy and spread open doesn't mean there was a high delta-p across the filter. The wavy pleats can happen due to many other reasons.

I do however don't like the two big open pleats, especially with an opened up 'eCore' style center tube. IMO, if the delta-p really was near 35 PSI, those two open pleats might have blown right through the center tube windows.

If he can't find another brand filter that he thinks will work better for this car, the use the OEM but ensure the oil stays clean and the filter is changed on a good maintenance schedule to ensure it doesn't load up and increase the delta-p/pressure drop across the filter.

BTW - he made it sound like he things the oil flow will be cut back if the filter goes into bypass mode. That is only true IF the oil pump has also hit pressure relief. If the oil pump is not in pressure relief, then 100% of the oil volume coming out of the pump is still going through the filter & engine ... even if the filter is bypassing some of that oil.

Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156602
07/21/16 06:24 AM
07/21/16 06:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,146
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,146
Cincinnati, OH, USA
I would add-use the recommended oil viscosity, don't go super thick (as happens often in Australia), let the engine warm up fully before running high RPMs, WOT, etc. That will minimize the chances of a media blowout, & I would stick with manufacturer recommended OCIs, keeping receipts for EVERYTHING, as well.


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: Popsy] #4156603
07/21/16 06:31 AM
07/21/16 06:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 69
USA
phaphaphooey Offline OP
phaphaphooey  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 69
USA
Originally Posted By: Popsy
I checked but it seems this MANN filter is the only one available for this car...cost 18 here.

I noticed since 2 or 3 years the Fiat/Alfa oem oil filters moved from "made in Italy" to "made in China", with loss of quality of course. Is this MANN filter really made in Germany?


Yes, it is the only one available for the car that I can find here in the USA as well.

As to the location of construction, I recently changed the oil in my 4C for the first time and ordered the proper Mann filter referenced in this thread. It definitely had "Made in Germany" written on both the box and the filter itself.


2009 Porsche Carrera S
2013 Lotus Evora
2015 Volkswagen GTI
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156622
07/21/16 06:59 AM
07/21/16 06:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,120
Tennessee
goodtimes Offline
goodtimes  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,120
Tennessee
I take it the wide spaced pleats are aligned with the bars of the center tube? Mann would test the filter for the bypass pressure rating I would think, but it definitely is different than the USA made ecore.

Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156658
07/21/16 07:46 AM
07/21/16 07:46 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,283
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,283
N.H, U.S.A.
High % water in oil. Non preferred aspect ratio.


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#10 47272mi-QSUD10W30+5w20 Toughguard Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156659
07/21/16 07:49 AM
07/21/16 07:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,147
Coastal South Carolina
edwardh1 Offline
edwardh1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,147
Coastal South Carolina
18 euros for an oil filter?


These products are all new every year?? They are a revolution!!! Razor blades, mens shirts, TVs, wiper blades, gutter guards, hearing aids... according to the ads. But also all new last year
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: phaphaphooey] #4156786
07/21/16 10:44 AM
07/21/16 10:44 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 925
Frogland / Brittany
Popsy Offline
Popsy  Offline
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 925
Frogland / Brittany
Yes, and that was an online retailer...
Filters for my cars are usually between 5 and 9, depending on model and brand (Purflux or Mann, I avoid Mahle now).


96 Barchetta, Motul 300V 5W40 | 98 Barchetta, Quartz 9000 energy 5W40
05 Forfour 95, SHU 0W40 (gf's car) | 10 Colt Ralliart, 300V 0W40
Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: ZeeOSix] #4161041
07/25/16 11:15 PM
07/25/16 11:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 8
Australia
CLOVER Offline
CLOVER  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 8
Australia
Hi, I am the original poster of this topic on '4C FORUMS'
Thanks to all for your comments.

I am not so concerned by 'waviness' so much as the spreading at the
axial supports, and the bunching and compression of the pleats into the
holes between the supports. It can be seen in the photos that this is
caused by pressure. I have measured and drawn this. Though the drawing
is somewhat idealistic, it is dimensionally and geometrically close.
If not good quality...sorry about that.
It displays the cause of the bunching; The well supported pleats over the axial
supports compress a bit at the bottom but tend to hold up better against
the pressure. As the poorly supported pleats sink into the holes those
better supported pleats push the other pleats together at the outside,
while the supports push them together at the inside.

I don't think that the 8 open pleats have a likelihood of rupturing
because they are over the axial supports.

There is no other filter for the 4C so I will need to take extra care
with servicing etc....sure...would anyhow.....but why should we
have to take extra EXTRA care because the filter is designed badly.
Or are you saying we should take extra care until the filters are fixed?
BTW it cost Au$76 (51 euro) from a big Alfa dealer.
]
Quote:
BTW - he made it sound like he things the oil flow will be cut back if the filter goes into bypass mode. That is only true IF the oil pump has also hit pressure relief. If the oil pump is not in pressure relief, then 100% of the oil volume coming out of the pump is still going through the filter & engine ... even if the filter is bypassing some of that oil.


Yes, It is a positive displacement pump, so the flow is not affected by the filter pre-relief,
and, post-relief, the pressure is high enough( in this case 100psi)that there
will always be enough pressure to the motor...100psi relief minus 35psi bypass = 75psi.
But if the filter is badly compromised the motor sees unfiltered oil after relief
and at any other time pre-relief.

I said "compromised", What you can see in the photos and drawings is the pleats
jamming together between the axial supports and deforming over the radial supports.
this must significantly restrict the capacity of this filter.

I am doing some testing:
This car has Approx 100psi relief and 35psi filter bypass.
New oil and filter.
Cold idle: 100psi supply.(relief open)
Warm idle: 45psi supply
When warm the press relief opens at 4000rpm.
Pressure across filter 2-3 psi.max.

In time I hope to post some more results.






Please ignore the extra black circle in the core in the picture below. blush

Re: Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob [Re: CLOVER] #4161110
07/26/16 05:36 AM
07/26/16 05:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 12,539
The Old North State
Sayjac Offline
Sayjac  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 12,539
The Old North State
Though first to admit I don't completely understand the conclusion given for the pleat deformation, it's an interesting topic. One thing I note is, 35 psi bypass spec is significantly higher compared to the average bypass spec on US spin on filters with filter integral bypass.

I would call this filter a hybrid ecore spin on design. But unlike the new ACDelco hybrid ecore this one obviously uses metal endcaps as opposed to the fiber type ACDelco. But the GM ACDelco have a much lower bypass spec too as noted earlier.

Agree that there should be another design available if this representative of results for this filter in this vehicle. My biggest concern though as has been posted on this board with an ecore anecdote would be the complete blowing out of a piece media between the openings, sending that media into the engine.

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