5w-40 vs. 15w-40 the real truth?
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Originally Posted By: Gokhan
All this said, in a light-duty diesel application, I would probably use Mobil 1 TDT or Rotella T6. Delvac 1 ESP is also OK if it's affordable. I wouldn't spend a fortune on it though -- after all, it doesn't even have moly.
Speaking for me, I would use T6 or Delo 400 LE before Mobil TDT because they both have better test results (done by Shell and Chevron). Delvac ESP is too hard to find in my area and when you can find it, the price is about $10-$12 per gallon more than the others.
All this said, in a light-duty diesel application, I would probably use Mobil 1 TDT or Rotella T6. Delvac 1 ESP is also OK if it's affordable. I wouldn't spend a fortune on it though -- after all, it doesn't even have moly.
Speaking for me, I would use T6 or Delo 400 LE before Mobil TDT because they both have better test results (done by Shell and Chevron). Delvac ESP is too hard to find in my area and when you can find it, the price is about $10-$12 per gallon more than the others.
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Originally Posted By: mbacfp
How do you like the 2015 powerstroke? My father in law claims he gets better mileage than his 2014 work truck he had?
I absolutely love it--night and day performance over my 2010 5.4L and yes, I get better MPG with the Powerstroke. I managed 19.2 in the 5.4L (best ever) and my average thus far with the PSD is the same, in fact, on the open road I have seen 21.x MPG in the PSD. It easily bests the 5.4L in every department--MPG, HP, and Torque.
How do you like the 2015 powerstroke? My father in law claims he gets better mileage than his 2014 work truck he had?
I absolutely love it--night and day performance over my 2010 5.4L and yes, I get better MPG with the Powerstroke. I managed 19.2 in the 5.4L (best ever) and my average thus far with the PSD is the same, in fact, on the open road I have seen 21.x MPG in the PSD. It easily bests the 5.4L in every department--MPG, HP, and Torque.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
If it's an all-PAO oil, it's great because it would be the only all-PAO Mobil 1 oil out there. It's surprising that they would only make an all-PAO oil for 18-wheelers and nothing else. Its pour point is very low; so, maybe it is, but I think it's more of a wishful thinking. It's very expensive and very hard to get in US. I also don't like that it doesn't have moly.
I didn't say all PAO. I said primarily. There are some esters in there, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were a splash of something else for solubility. And there is no wishful thinking involved. There is actual evidence pointing to it, such as I already mentioned. Believe it, or don't believe it. However, I have seen no evidence that Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is Group III. That is wishful thinking. As for moly, I couldn't care less. There's a reason it's not there, and I don't second guess fully formulated motor oils in that regard. It meets the specifications it claims, and has certain approvals, and that is satisfactory.
With respect to your Shell graph, which test are they using? I assume they are using ASTM D6278, but I'm not sure why they're not saying what they're using. It's a pass/fail test for E7, E9, and Delvac 1 passes, because it remains in grade. Note that it required for the ACEA sequences, and not necessarily for API stuff. Also, check some UOAs. Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is not known for shearing in service, as per UOAs, whereas some have complained about Rotella 5w-40. Go figure. That has been discussed here before, including by someone who has actually analyzed more UOAs than you or I will ever see.
Of course, I can't speak for U.S. pricing. But, you'll never see me buy a jug of TDT. It's +/- $50 a jug here, and is never on sale. I get Delvac 1 for half that from the distributor. In Canada, pricing has little to do with additive packages or base stocks. It has to do with having as much markup as the Canadian public will withstand, when it comes to normal retail outlets. I buy Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 for about $25 a jug from Imperial Oil. I go to Walmart or Canadian Tire, I pay more than that for PYB or QSGB or GTX or VWB or Mobil Super conventional.
Note that the fuel economy benefits, even in the trucks, are predicated upon a cold start and subsequent warm up, and not just a lower HTHS. And, note, that much of the fuel saving marketing is about being able to shut your truck off in the cold, when a 15w-40 wouldn't allow for that.
As an aside, to those mentioning additives, go ask Doug what he thinks about putting additives in Delvac 1. I dare you.
If it's an all-PAO oil, it's great because it would be the only all-PAO Mobil 1 oil out there. It's surprising that they would only make an all-PAO oil for 18-wheelers and nothing else. Its pour point is very low; so, maybe it is, but I think it's more of a wishful thinking. It's very expensive and very hard to get in US. I also don't like that it doesn't have moly.
I didn't say all PAO. I said primarily. There are some esters in there, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were a splash of something else for solubility. And there is no wishful thinking involved. There is actual evidence pointing to it, such as I already mentioned. Believe it, or don't believe it. However, I have seen no evidence that Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is Group III. That is wishful thinking. As for moly, I couldn't care less. There's a reason it's not there, and I don't second guess fully formulated motor oils in that regard. It meets the specifications it claims, and has certain approvals, and that is satisfactory.
With respect to your Shell graph, which test are they using? I assume they are using ASTM D6278, but I'm not sure why they're not saying what they're using. It's a pass/fail test for E7, E9, and Delvac 1 passes, because it remains in grade. Note that it required for the ACEA sequences, and not necessarily for API stuff. Also, check some UOAs. Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is not known for shearing in service, as per UOAs, whereas some have complained about Rotella 5w-40. Go figure. That has been discussed here before, including by someone who has actually analyzed more UOAs than you or I will ever see.
Of course, I can't speak for U.S. pricing. But, you'll never see me buy a jug of TDT. It's +/- $50 a jug here, and is never on sale. I get Delvac 1 for half that from the distributor. In Canada, pricing has little to do with additive packages or base stocks. It has to do with having as much markup as the Canadian public will withstand, when it comes to normal retail outlets. I buy Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 for about $25 a jug from Imperial Oil. I go to Walmart or Canadian Tire, I pay more than that for PYB or QSGB or GTX or VWB or Mobil Super conventional.
Note that the fuel economy benefits, even in the trucks, are predicated upon a cold start and subsequent warm up, and not just a lower HTHS. And, note, that much of the fuel saving marketing is about being able to shut your truck off in the cold, when a 15w-40 wouldn't allow for that.
As an aside, to those mentioning additives, go ask Doug what he thinks about putting additives in Delvac 1. I dare you.
Seen nothing but good uoas on delvac 1...a lot from the Ford 6.0 that shears oil like crazy. Not sure I've seen Doug on here (am still new). Only reason I was interested in Archoil 9100 was it helps with injector Stiction in 6.0...so I figured it couldn't hurt if it helps further reduce engine wear? Perhaps I am wrong? Would love to hear from someone who knows this stuff. Nano Borons provide any lubrication benefits? Thanks.
Doug,
What is the real story behind additives borons, moly? The benefit I saw most was extra protection for the turbo? Do additives make a little difference at the margin? Whether it is justified by the cost is another story. Just want to know the no [censored], no marketing hype answer. Thanks in advance as always.
What is the real story behind additives borons, moly? The benefit I saw most was extra protection for the turbo? Do additives make a little difference at the margin? Whether it is justified by the cost is another story. Just want to know the no [censored], no marketing hype answer. Thanks in advance as always.
Doug pokes in from time to time. My comment was semi-rhetorical. He has stated many times that these oils are fully formulated and additives should not be used in them, nor have the oils mixed with other oils, hoping to out-think the formulators.
The formulators, whether we like to admit it or not, know what they're doing and didn't eliminate part of the additive package by mistake or inadvertently add a bunch of unnecessary stuff.
The formulators, whether we like to admit it or not, know what they're doing and didn't eliminate part of the additive package by mistake or inadvertently add a bunch of unnecessary stuff.
Well, in US, Delvac 1 ESP is astronomically priced and very hard to find. It may have PAO because its formulation goes back to SM days, when Mobil 1 was primarily PAO. Many HDEOs have updated to SN but not Delvac. You really don't want to have a pure-PAO oil (without any Group V or Group III) because of stability reasons.
As for there being no moly in Delvac 1 ESP, that makes me very worried personally. I wouldn't use any oil without moly myself.
I keep forgetting about Delo HDEO because Chevron doesn't make popular PCMO. Shell did some tests on 15W-40 Rotella, Delvac, and Delo. 15W-40 Delo was the worst in all tests, albeit statistical errors being somewhat large. What is more interesting, 15W-40 Delvac was better overall than 15W-40 Rotella in Shell's own tests (link).
My favorite 15W-40 is Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40. I think it's the best out there. I haven't used any 5W-40 HDEO; so, I can't give any recommendation on that but they all seem good. I was also surprised to find out that there is a 0W-30 Delo that is CG-4/SJ rated -- CG-4 being an officially obsolete spec. It can easily compete with German Castrol 0W-30 though, which is only CF-rated (another officially obsolete spec).
As for there being no moly in Delvac 1 ESP, that makes me very worried personally. I wouldn't use any oil without moly myself.
I keep forgetting about Delo HDEO because Chevron doesn't make popular PCMO. Shell did some tests on 15W-40 Rotella, Delvac, and Delo. 15W-40 Delo was the worst in all tests, albeit statistical errors being somewhat large. What is more interesting, 15W-40 Delvac was better overall than 15W-40 Rotella in Shell's own tests (link).
My favorite 15W-40 is Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40. I think it's the best out there. I haven't used any 5W-40 HDEO; so, I can't give any recommendation on that but they all seem good. I was also surprised to find out that there is a 0W-30 Delo that is CG-4/SJ rated -- CG-4 being an officially obsolete spec. It can easily compete with German Castrol 0W-30 though, which is only CF-rated (another officially obsolete spec).
Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 didn't go to SN because CJ-4 came out before SN, and recertifying the oil for SN, when almost nothing calls simply for a 5w-40 SN, wouldn't have been terribly useful. There are some 15w-40 and 5w-40 and 10w-30 HDEOs that are SN, but usually when they've gone a big reformulation or were introduced after the SN rollout in the first place. The latest 5w-30 HDEOs are usually CJ-4/SN, since they are very recent. The previous versions of 5w-30 HDEOs were like four or five "S" specifications ago. I can't check so easily, since Imperial Oil yanked all their old sheets.
As for 0w-30 stuff, we do get Delvac Elite 222 0w-30 CJ-4/SM. Petro-Canada has a non-certified competitor, too. As for Chevron, they do make some popular PCMO, it's just not always that easy to find. But, it's still easier to find up here than PU.
What's the concern about the moly? It's not he only friction modifier out there, and if one is really concerned with friction modification and fuel economy, there are more than enough ILSAC varieties out there.
As for 0w-30 stuff, we do get Delvac Elite 222 0w-30 CJ-4/SM. Petro-Canada has a non-certified competitor, too. As for Chevron, they do make some popular PCMO, it's just not always that easy to find. But, it's still easier to find up here than PU.
What's the concern about the moly? It's not he only friction modifier out there, and if one is really concerned with friction modification and fuel economy, there are more than enough ILSAC varieties out there.
Originally Posted By: Garak
What's the concern about the moly? It's not he only friction modifier out there, and if one is really concerned with friction modification and fuel economy, there are more than enough ILSAC varieties out there.
Moly is more of an extreme-pressure additive, which means that it decreases scuffing. It's also an antiwear additive, friction modifier, and antioxidant. I don't think there is any better extreme-pressure additive than moly out there. In addition, trinuclear moly made by Infineum (joint ExxonMobil and Shell venture) is a very potent form. Moreover, moly is synergistic with ZDDP, making it more effective.
What's the concern about the moly? It's not he only friction modifier out there, and if one is really concerned with friction modification and fuel economy, there are more than enough ILSAC varieties out there.
Moly is more of an extreme-pressure additive, which means that it decreases scuffing. It's also an antiwear additive, friction modifier, and antioxidant. I don't think there is any better extreme-pressure additive than moly out there. In addition, trinuclear moly made by Infineum (joint ExxonMobil and Shell venture) is a very potent form. Moreover, moly is synergistic with ZDDP, making it more effective.
What is your view on Hexagonal Borons, Potassium Borates, etc.? I understand the argument if new technology was available, then the majors would be using it already. However, in my profession the larger institutions are usually the last to implement new techniques and are more likely prone to following the status quo (at least that is how I see it). From a scientific perspective, I would think some of these additives would have some merit...but this is not my wheel house of expertise. I agree that the oils are adequate to maintain a healthy engine...but could/do these additives provide anything additional? Maybe their contribution is so minimal it won’t add up to anything substantial over hundreds of thousands of miles? I guess without robust data on engine wear over long periods of time using additives one can only speculate? Only thing I know is, borates have helped elevate/mask some injection stiction problems on some Ford 6.0 engines..so I can only assume the addition of the additive did contribute something beyond the base oil. Thanks.
Hi,
mbacfp - Charlie and others have provided you with excellent advice. IMO you should simply stay with what you're doing!
You should avoid using supplementary additives of any sort - they are simply not needed
mbacfp - Charlie and others have provided you with excellent advice. IMO you should simply stay with what you're doing!
You should avoid using supplementary additives of any sort - they are simply not needed
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Don't underestimate the additive package. The additive package is what makes an oil a motor oil. It's more important than the base oil. Your engine wouldn't last much at all without the additive package (a few thousand miles?). Conversely, you could be just fine with cooking oil used as base oil if you have a good additive package.
Additive packages are said to saturate the base oils (in figurative sense), meaning that they result in lubricant properties that can be as good as they can get, even with a lower quality base oil used as the starting point.
As for other EP/AW/FM/AO additives, I don't really know. I trust the proven ones like ZDDP and moly (in particular trinuclear moly for the latter) a lot more than newer ones like boric acid, titanium dioxide, etc. There are some good organic FMs out there though and they are widely used to increase the fuel efficiency.
Last but not least, no, I wouldn't use supplemental oil additives myself. There is a risk that they may throw the original additives out of balance, and even if they didn't, they are probably not effective. I know some people seem to have had success with some moly additives but I don't see any need to use them and take any risks in most common applications.
I did have great success with the ACDelco cooling system tabs though.
As for other EP/AW/FM/AO additives, I don't really know. I trust the proven ones like ZDDP and moly (in particular trinuclear moly for the latter) a lot more than newer ones like boric acid, titanium dioxide, etc. There are some good organic FMs out there though and they are widely used to increase the fuel efficiency.
Last but not least, no, I wouldn't use supplemental oil additives myself. There is a risk that they may throw the original additives out of balance, and even if they didn't, they are probably not effective. I know some people seem to have had success with some moly additives but I don't see any need to use them and take any risks in most common applications.
I did have great success with the ACDelco cooling system tabs though.
Hi,
mbacfp - Yes, trended UOAs enable you to monitor your oil choice and determine a suitable OCI - as long as its cost effective for you
HDEOs are especially formulated for the purpose and a main factor is how they handle soot levels. IME synthetic HDEOs can do this better and some Brands do it better than others. Typically this enables a true "stay in grade performance" for a longer time/distance
That said, any modern known Brand and suitably specified 15W-40 lubricant does its job well in the intended application. The changes occur at the edges of the stretched envelope such as extended OCIs and in demanding applications
mbacfp - Yes, trended UOAs enable you to monitor your oil choice and determine a suitable OCI - as long as its cost effective for you
HDEOs are especially formulated for the purpose and a main factor is how they handle soot levels. IME synthetic HDEOs can do this better and some Brands do it better than others. Typically this enables a true "stay in grade performance" for a longer time/distance
That said, any modern known Brand and suitably specified 15W-40 lubricant does its job well in the intended application. The changes occur at the edges of the stretched envelope such as extended OCIs and in demanding applications
Get this extremely useful vacuum pump so that you can sample your oil for UOA before you change your oil. You can then decide which oil to use when you change your oil accordingly.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/vacuum-pump.php
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/vacuum-pump.php
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Moly is more of an extreme-pressure additive, which means that it decreases scuffing. It's also an antiwear additive, friction modifier, and antioxidant.
Any concerns over scuffing are addressed in the relevant oil specifications, and not necessarily by one individual ingredient. Given that the ACEA E sequences have such measures, I'm not concerned with a formulator reaches that goal. As for anti-wear, moly will not do that at the concentrations found in "normal" motor oils. Beyond that, I'm not sure of the concentrations needed for EP action.
Moly is more of an extreme-pressure additive, which means that it decreases scuffing. It's also an antiwear additive, friction modifier, and antioxidant.
Any concerns over scuffing are addressed in the relevant oil specifications, and not necessarily by one individual ingredient. Given that the ACEA E sequences have such measures, I'm not concerned with a formulator reaches that goal. As for anti-wear, moly will not do that at the concentrations found in "normal" motor oils. Beyond that, I'm not sure of the concentrations needed for EP action.
Thanks again to everyone...learned a lot. There was a sale at my local NAPA on the gallon Delvac 5w-40 ESP for $23 plus the mobile rebate...so it ended costing like $12 a gallon. I switched out the factory 10W-30 and have only used Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme 5w-40. It is easy to get lost in all the marketing hype regarding oils and additives. I appreciate all the technical info and advice. Take care all.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
There is nothing wrong with dino based oil if it is well refined and blended. The first and second 1M mile motors were on Delo400 and Delvac (not a synthetic), so you know that fleet oils will protect your motor. If they didn't, and there were any provable oil related engine failures for say UPS or some other big fleet operator, we all know about it... There aren't.
I was under the impression that the first documented engine to go over 1 million without a major repair was a Cummins in 1985 that was owned by Gus Hackler Trucking out of Meridian, ID. It was on Schaeffer oil.
I took a Cummins '95 N-14 to 1.4 million without a major repair on Kendall conventional 15w40 doing 30,000 mile OCI's. No bypass, just full flow Baldwin filters. The truck went right to work for the next owner. That truck got started down to -25F during the winter, again, only on conventional 15w40 oil. Just the block heater, no oil pan warmer. I have since grown fond of oil pan warmers and use them.
Any hoo, my present semi motor is on Schaeffer 711 10w30 blend. Started out on a 15w40 blend but got moved over to 10w30.
There is nothing wrong with dino based oil if it is well refined and blended. The first and second 1M mile motors were on Delo400 and Delvac (not a synthetic), so you know that fleet oils will protect your motor. If they didn't, and there were any provable oil related engine failures for say UPS or some other big fleet operator, we all know about it... There aren't.
I was under the impression that the first documented engine to go over 1 million without a major repair was a Cummins in 1985 that was owned by Gus Hackler Trucking out of Meridian, ID. It was on Schaeffer oil.
I took a Cummins '95 N-14 to 1.4 million without a major repair on Kendall conventional 15w40 doing 30,000 mile OCI's. No bypass, just full flow Baldwin filters. The truck went right to work for the next owner. That truck got started down to -25F during the winter, again, only on conventional 15w40 oil. Just the block heater, no oil pan warmer. I have since grown fond of oil pan warmers and use them.
Any hoo, my present semi motor is on Schaeffer 711 10w30 blend. Started out on a 15w40 blend but got moved over to 10w30.
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