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#3374222 - 05/17/14 06:36 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
irekm Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 18
Loc: vancouver
Maybe they know , but obviously Caterham knows better :-)) .
How , can someone make recommendation of engine oils that are different than specs coming out from the manufacturers is simply beyond me .


Edited by irekm (05/17/14 06:36 PM)

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#3374322 - 05/17/14 08:55 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
ianj3vr6 Offline


Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Burke, VA
The info Porsche provide, along with their reasoning was a good read. Seeing how these are designed for only their air cooled engines, I'd guess that Porsche thought this through pretty thoroughly and developed accordingly.
_________________________
07 GTI (BPY), 92 SLC (AAA), 06 Rav4 (2AZ-FE)

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#3374376 - 05/17/14 10:02 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: irekm]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 22387
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: irekm
Maybe they know , but obviously Caterham knows better :-)) .
How , can someone make recommendation of engine oils that are different than specs coming out from the manufacturers is simply beyond me.

You might be well served to read some of the posting history on this issue. CATERHAM makes a valid point, and Doug has generally gone with manual recommendations for various Porsches in question, which did include thinner multigrades and monogrades. The points they made are not mutually exclusive.

The vast majority of posters here, including those with fleet and classic experience, would agree that a 20w-50 or the like is rarely actually necessary. That's particularly true if the engine is in good shape and driven conservatively. It's not going to be harmful (assuming it's not used when too cold or driven hard when cold), so it's also a "safe" recommendation.

The manufacturer specs of the time in Europe had a fairly wide variety of viscosities, and a 30 grade and a 50 grade would both fall within that range. If we're lucky, Doug can tell us a bit of the history of the 20w-50 grade, here in this thread - no one tells the story like he does, and it's extremely enlightening.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3374444 - 05/17/14 11:08 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 5109
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
Garak - As suggested and for those interested;

The 20W-50 viscosity was the first Euro multigrade oil - it was made by Duckhams. It was called IIRC Duckhams Q2050

It was formulated/made especially around 1958-9 for the Mini - the Mini was introduced in 1959. Due to the integrated engine- gearbox traditional oils were totally unsuitable (excessive-permanent shearing) and they caused all sorts of dramas from excessive leaks to, excessive wear and engine failure. The Q2050 helped with some of these but the A Series engine was modified to cope as for instance oil pump failures resulted from the heavier lubricant under certain conditions.

In other applications the great little A Series engine ran durably and like a dream on SAE20W-20, SAE30 and the 10W-30 from the likes of Mobil(Mobiloil) and others

Castrol followed suit with a 20W-50 around 1960!

The 20W-50 viscosity rapidly became a "fix-it" for all sorts of British applications but the Euro manufacturers were slower on the uptake going progressively to 10W-40

As for Porsche and others I've always preferred the lightest recommended lubricant for the application. The Porsche 928S4 is an example. In the last version it became the first synthetic FF with Shell's XO 5W-40 around 1990. Some OZ Owners were seduced into using a never endorsed 25W-70 in these wonderful engines - why?

They perform very well on 5W-40 synthetic

Of course the Porsche 356 and early production 911s used a FF of HD20W-20 and/or SAE30HD - like other German manufacturers of that time

I prefer not to divulge what Brand 20W-50 the Porsche Museum in Zuffenhausen uses/used to use - but it was/is always warmed to 80C before revs/load was/is applied

Many Oil Companies now make a 10W-60 viscosity (perhaps the modern fix-it viscosity) which dates back to Castrol's Formula R 15W-50 ester based lubricant of the 1970s. Of course we all know the BMW story about this lubricant!!!!!

In some older generation engines of various Makes it is wise to stay with their originally recommended viscosity. This is typically for design, technology and durability reasons!

I hope this is of interest
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3374717 - 05/18/14 10:26 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
901Memphis Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 12657
Loc: Northern Kentucky
Mobil 1 15w50 seems like a better choice than a mineral 20w50.
_________________________
2002 Buick Century 130k - Built 4T65e(Maxlife) - Edge 0w40 + Fram XG3980
1998 Nissan Altima 337k - 5MT - M1 HM 5w30/Fram Ultra XG7317+MOS+ATP 205

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#3374863 - 05/18/14 03:18 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Doug Hillary]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 22387
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Thanks for that, Doug. I never tire of hearing the history.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3375371 - 05/19/14 06:40 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Garak]
ianj3vr6 Offline


Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Burke, VA
Originally Posted By: Garak
Thanks for that, Doug. I never tire of hearing the history.


Same here Doug, Thank You
_________________________
07 GTI (BPY), 92 SLC (AAA), 06 Rav4 (2AZ-FE)

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#3388304 - 06/03/14 10:30 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
BytorJr Offline


Registered: 11/24/10
Posts: 15
Loc: Dunedin, FL, USA
I saw an add for this not too terribly long ago in one of my Porsche mags.

Anyway, I'm using Valvoline VR1 Synthetic 20w-50; but according to this new information I guess I should get some 10w-60 (3.2L 1985). A good buddy has a 1993 3.6L and we both use the same stuff.

So should we change to 10w-60; and, if so do I pay the Porsche price or go with Castrol EDGE or LiquiMoly? Or Total 9000 10w-50 or Motul 15w-50?

Just curious....

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#3388582 - 06/04/14 11:20 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: BytorJr]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 10139
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
BytorJr it depends on how hot your oil gets.
Yes I would be inclined to use the higher VI synthetic 10W-60 or Total 10W-50 if you can maintain the spec' oil pressure.
MY 1985 is not all that old so using modern high detergent oils is not a problem. And if you have plenty of viscosity reserve you may even be able to run a 40 grade oil like M1 0W-40, again assuming you can maintain adequate OP when the oil is as hot as it ever gets.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S, TGMO 0W-20 25% / M1 0W-40 75%
96 BMW 328i, Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70% / M1 0W-40 30%
94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20

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#3389065 - 06/04/14 08:10 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: CATERHAM]
BytorJr Offline


Registered: 11/24/10
Posts: 15
Loc: Dunedin, FL, USA
It's a pretty fresh rebuild (< 5K miles but almost 6 years ago.), 3 or 4 track events; but I don't drive it much anymore (sadly) and it has shown it is a true Porsche air-cooled motor (an ever so slight leak at the oil return tube). Unfortunately, it set idle for a while during my mom's hospitalization.

Oh, and I have a massive MOCAL mounted in front (not fender) that keeps oil < 210 at track temps. Generally right at the 186 mark when thermostat opens. So no oil temp issues here.

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#3389116 - 06/04/14 09:06 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: BytorJr]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 10139
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Since you've got your oil temp's so well controlled and the engine's freshly rebuilt, M1 0W-40 or even Castrol 0W-30 would likely be good engine lube choices.
Or if you're into something a bit more exotic with higher ZDDP and moly levels, your could try Red Line 0W-30 or a blend of their 0W-20 and 0W-40 determined by oil pressure.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S, TGMO 0W-20 25% / M1 0W-40 75%
96 BMW 328i, Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70% / M1 0W-40 30%
94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20

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#3389398 - 06/05/14 06:55 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 16458
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
I had a 930 for quite a while, 3.3 Ltr engine. I used RS 10W60 in it and never had any trouble with oil pressure, it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same oil as the SG rated RS which is now obsolete and hard to find.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3389483 - 06/05/14 08:14 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Trav]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 8247
Loc: Upper Midwest
What year was your 930? A guy three doors down from my parents had a '79 when I was growing up. I got to ride in it a couple of times, what a car.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I had a 930 for quite a while, 3.3 Ltr engine. I used RS 10W60 in it and never had any trouble with oil pressure, it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same oil as the SG rated RS which is now obsolete and hard to find.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 219K
1996 Honda Accord, 241K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 379K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 262K

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#3389568 - 06/05/14 09:49 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: kschachn]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 16458
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
I had a 76 3.0 and the 82 3.3. at different times. These are hard cars to drive, they were a little uncivilized.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3400319 - 06/18/14 05:52 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
RatPatrol Offline


Registered: 10/13/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: ianj3vr6
Hey All,

I hope this is not a redundant post. But, the Porsche Classic dept just recently released 2 different grades specifically designed for all air-cooled Porsche engines. Hopefully I've summed it up correctly:

Mineral based 20w-50 (All engines up to 3L in displacement)


that's funny, I always ran 20w50 in my 1600cc VW
_________________________
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are

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