Audi ATF Change Advice

[SF0059]

Hello All,

I am looking to do a transmission drain/filter replacement on the Audi in my signature. Although Audi considers this a "lifetime fluid", these 5 speed ZF transmissions were known for torque converter issues. Thus, I want to start doing drains every 20k mi or so.

Currently, the transmission seems to have some quirks. There are rather harsh downshifts at low speed and there is a noticeable amount of shudder when stopped in drive (although no slipping or shuddering any other time). There is also some noticeable delay from R to D. The transmission does not leak at all.

Anyway, the plan is to replace 3 quarts of fluid on the first drain (That is the drain amount, 9 quarts total capacity). I'll probably do two more drains at 1k mi intervals to fully refresh the fluid while not shocking the system.

I want to use Valvoline MaxLife Dex/Merc as it is what they recommend for this transmission. The OEM Pentosin is expensive enough it might be made from unicorn tears. Any thoughts on this fluid or another?

Also, once fully cycled, I would like to drop in some LubeGard. I've heard good things, but I'm not sure whether red or platinum is better for my application. Any tips there?

Thanks!

 

[Donald]

I am not sure there is such a thing as "shocking" a transmission. Pools maybe when opening in the spring.

Have you looked at top tier, M1, Redline or Amsoil? All would be a step up from Maxlife.

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: Donald
I am not sure there is such a thing as "shocking" a transmission.


Oh yes you can Donnie......Fresh ATF = Basic (High pH). Old/Used ATF = Acidic (Low pH).

Many believe that the large and quick swing in pH conditions when doing a complete flush on really old (acidic) fluid is a contributing factor to many trannies failing shortly after the complete fluid exchange.

Furthermore, many believe that the large and rapid flux in pH conditions inside the ATF is harmful to clutch discs, causing them to fail/deterioriate/become brittle very quickly...which causes slippage and can lead to large amounts of debris being scattered throughout the tranny, which plugs screens and cloggs lines.

 

[SF0059]

I have looked at M1 and it appears to be compatible with the trans. While I know that Redline and Amsoil make good fluids, they are both difficult to aquire around here. I can get RP locally and it is also compatible.

My thought process behind the MaxLife was that the transmission is 14 years old and could probably use some seal conditioning (although it doesn't leak).

Would you still go the M1 or RP route?

 

[mount]

Originally Posted By: SF0059
Hello All,

I am looking to do a transmission drain/filter replacement on the Audi in my signature. Although Audi considers this a "lifetime fluid", these 5 speed ZF transmissions were known for torque converter issues. Thus, I want to start doing drains every 20k mi or so.

Currently, the transmission seems to have some quirks. There are rather harsh downshifts at low speed and there is a noticeable amount of shudder when stopped in drive The only cause for this is that your Snub Mount is worn out, and/or the bracket is not adjusted right. (although no slipping or shuddering any other time).

There is also some noticeable delay from R to D.They all do this. They don't engage Drive immediately from Reverse like most other vehicles do. I usually give it a second in Neutral before selecting D as it takes the same amount of time and seems easier on it. The transmission does not leak at all.

Anyway, the plan is to replace 3 quarts of fluid on the first drain (That is the drain amount, 9 quarts total capacity). I'll probably do two more drains at 1k mi intervals to fully refresh the fluid while not shocking the system.

I want to use Valvoline MaxLife Dex/Merc as it is what they recommend for this transmission. The OEM Pentosin is expensive enough it might be made from unicorn tears. Any thoughts on this fluid or another?

Also, once fully cycled, I would like to drop in some LubeGard. I've heard good things, but I'm not sure whether red or platinum is better for my application. Any tips there?

Thanks!


STOP Everything.

Yes you should probably do a Drain and fill, (maybe every 30k)...

BUT, the symptoms you describe stem from your motor mounts and trans mounts. (A common wear item on these)

Harsh Downshifts:

The harsh downshifts (on my Passat I would have described it as a slam), is from your motor mounts (3 total - L, R, and Snub), as well as your Trans Mounts (2 total L & R) bottoming out.

Take a look underneath your car, the L&R motor mounts probably have the Purple fluid (Barney Blood

) leaked out of them. It makes sense to replace the others along with the two fluid filled motor mounts as these two are the hardest and the most expensive to replace. (And boy are those two a pain).

Trans mounts are harder to tell if worn out, but if the motor mounts are shot, the Trans mounts are ready to go too (can't see the rubber without removing them anyway, and they are relatively cheap).
Moral of the story: change all 5 at once.

Let me know if you want more info on how to change these, but just know that if you're not used to working on these beasts, it will be a horrible experience. People supposedly have made certain shortcuts work for the two fluid filled and snub mounts which I tried at first but failed. Trans mounts are straightforward though.

Shudder at a Stop

I have found this to be a result of the snub mount adjustment. The snub mount (front of engine) holds the engine/trans from rotating forward and backward. If you hold your foot on the brake and idle in either D or R, you will see the engine pitch forward or backwards. It is riding on the snub mount at this point, which sits inside an adjustable oval on on the frame (front clip/bumper).

You will have to play around with the adjustment for yourself, but I have found no happy medium, even after replacing the rubber snub mount itself (helped immensely). It seems you have to pick one side or the other. I have it set now where it will shake against its' stop with your foot on the Brake in Reverse, ever so slighly shake in Park, and no shake whatsoever in Drive with foot on brake(the mount is centered in the oval at this point).

There are two different shaped mounts available to buy which also may affect the adjustment range. I have the Black one on the left. I believe I would have had better luck with the Orange OE style, as it seems to be smaller in round.

Changing the fluid
I assume you have researched what is involved in changing the fluid on these. It is way harder than it would ever need to be.

Some of the fun includes:
1. Fill is on the bottom of the pan right next to drain plug, so you need to pump it in from the bottom.
2. Car needs to be running during for the final part of the fill procedure, so you get to lay under a running car likely on jackstands (yay!)

side note: I would recommend topping off fluid with a trusted friend holding his foot on the brake and trans in Reverse

. It seems to take more fluid this way, which is good because many have shown that you are never able to get back in the same amount of fluid that it comes with from the factory.

Again, I can write more detailed explanations or send you some threads/forums which maybe helpful, but I don't feel like writing numerous more paragraphs if not required.

 

[threeputtpar]

I'd be glad to offer my advice as to what I've done on my 5HP19FLA trans.

I'm currently running MaxLife in mine with a 10oz bottle of Lubegard Red. I've probably got >50k miles on the fill and will be changing out some soon. I picked up 6 quarts of Wolf's Head Multi Vehicle to do the next change as I want to get back to the proper 100C viscosity of ~7.5cSt. I'm starting to get a shudder between 2 and 3 on the upshift again. That's the sign on my car that the fluid is spent.

If you want to retain the correct viscosity and get a full syn, Oreilly has the Valvoline syn Import Multi Vehicle for $6.50 a quart.

Autozone is the best option for a filter kit I've found. A nice rubber gasket and decent filter, you just have to have the store order it for you.

Get a fluid pump to refill with that will attach to the ATF containers that you choose.

A pan and filter drop will need almost 6 quarts to refill, and a simple drain and fill will be just over 4 quarts.

Lubegard Red is good for fluids that meet the Audi 052 152 A2 spec, but if you go with just a compatible fluid use the Lubegard Platinum. That's according to Lubegard's own chart.

Edit: Don't be startled when you first draing the trans fluid and it looks like used motor oil. The original fluid was not colored red from the factory and neither is the Pentosin stuff. It's not a problem, as it's just a lack of red dye that most other ATF has.

 

[SF0059]

Thanks for the help, gentlemen! This information has been invaluable.

It is good to know about the motor mounts, I will check those. I have had fluid filled mounts go bad on other cars, so I know what to look for.

I know that doing the drain and fill will be a pain in the you-know-what, but I have been doing a lot of reading on it and think it is doable. I'm going to get a fluid pump from ECS Tuning and a infrared temp gun from HF and give it a shot.

With regard to the fluid, this is where I am really stumped. I know that my ZF specs g052162a2. The Valvoline MaxLife Dex/Merc lists this, as do M1 and RP. Or should I just go with Pentosin? Folks at AudiWorld seem to go with Pentosin, but I also know these guys can get rabid about certain things (like running LubroMoly). Knowing the torque converter issues this transmission is know for I want to make sure to get a good fluid for the application and some LubeGard in there ASAP.

Also, if a ATF lists g052162a2 as equivalent, would I be ok to run LubeGard red instead of Platinum? Or should I just run Red?

Thanks again for helping me get this figured out!

 

[mount]

FWIW, the one time I did a drain and fill, I used Pentosin.

Haven't been over there in awhile, but everyone over at PassatWorld is usually pretty useful

 

[antiqueshell]

Pentosin is the OEM fluid so you can't go wrong by using it.

This is one application where I certainly would NOT use Valvoline.

Stick with Pentosin.

For European cars it's a better bet to stay with European fluids, doesn't have to be VAG fluid just the brand that made the OEM spec.

 

[threeputtpar]

The actual ZF trans fluid spec for your trans is LT 71141. The VW G052162A2 is based directly on LT 71141. According to ZF, the fluid just needs to meet LT 71141, therefor according to Valvoline, MaxLife will work just fine.

Like I said, I've been running MaxLife for 50k miles now with LG Red with no problems. If you'll be using a fluid that meets LT 71141, pair it with LG Red. Or you can use a full syn Dex VI fluid with LG Platinum, according to LG. I'd stick with LT 71141 and Red.

Dont' bother with a temp gun, just drop the fluid and let the car sit overnight and then fill it up all the way while it's running to get enough fluid in there. I've done this and used my VagCom to watch temp and the amounts I got in on both occasions was very close. If you put your hand on the trans pan and it isn't uncomfortable, then you're in the right temp range for proper filling.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell

For European cars it's a better bet to stay with European fluids, doesn't have to be VAG fluid just the brand that made the OEM spec.



That myth needs to die. I don't know why dealers, mechanics, and owners love perpetuating that notion that only European fluids and parts are suitable -- there are clearly equivalent (better?) versions.

It's ultimately your car and your money, but I see no reason to buy the expensive OEM fluid when I can get an aftermarket fluid for half the price.

 

[SF0059]

Thanks again for the input, guys!

I am still figuring out how I'm going to get the car lifted and level (I might have to buy a second jack at HF), but I'm ready to move forward!

I swung by the VW dealership and Pentosin was running $19.99 for 1.5 liters, so that is a no go (even though I can get it cheaper online). I'm either going to run MaxLife or M1.

I appreciate all the help, it has been beneficial!

 

[BigLou80]

I am thinking about doing a drain and refill on my new to me 2009 A4 with the 6 speed tiptrionic.

based on what I have read here and a bit of common sense it would seem that I could just measure the amount of fluid drained out and pump in an equivalent amount and be good. Has any body tried this apporach with any success ?

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: BigLou80
I am thinking about doing a drain and refill on my new to me 2009 A4 with the 6 speed tiptrionic.

based on what I have read here and a bit of common sense it would seem that I could just measure the amount of fluid drained out and pump in an equivalent amount and be good. Has any body tried this apporach with any success ?


If you are using that approach, let the fluid cool to ambiant temperature and then measure the volume. If you measure it when it's at operating temp or near, it will have expanded and the volume will be larger and you will underfill the trans.

The flip side would be to heat the new fluid to the same temp and then measure out the same as what you drained, but that may be more difficult.

 

[keith]

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
If you are using that approach, let the fluid cool to ambiant temperature and then measure the volume. If you measure it when it's at operating temp or near, it will have expanded and the volume will be larger and you will underfill the trans.



If you remove and measure hot fluid, and pour into the transmission the same volume of cool fluid, you will overfill the transmission. I haven't seen a definitive cubical expansion for ATF, but have read that it is about 0.07% increase in volume per degree C. That's about 70C increase for a 5% volume increase. But as noted, if you let it cool to ambient and replace by the same volume of fresh ambient temperature fluid, you're good.