Cupping - can it go away?

[DriveHard]

I drive an Audi A3 that has the normal high degree of negative camber in the rear wheels. I also have 17" rims with 225/45-17 tires. The combination results in rear tires that cup on the inside edge quite quickly. I usually rotate the tires every 5000 miles to fight this, but I got a little over 10,000 miles on the last rotation. As a result, the cupped tires that I have now rotated to the front produce a lot of road noise (a decent roar, and a lower speed almost grinding feel). Will this cupping wear away? Is there anything I can do?

 

[Quattro Pete]

I'm afraid there isn't much you can do at this point.

But going forward (new tires), can't you adjust the rear camber a bit to make it slightly less aggressive? This issue is very typical on most BMWs as well, but if you have the shop dial in the camber to the upper range of allowable limits, the inside wear isn't such a big of an issue. And it typical street driving, you probably won't be able to tell the difference in handling, unless you track it...

 

[Eddie]

My personal experience with cupping is once it starts, there is nothing you can do. The exception in your case might be to remount the tires by changing the inside to the outside.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I would suggest the same as Quattro Pete. Have the alignment shop take as much negative camber out of it as possible. What is Audi's specification for negative camber in the back, and what is the measured amount on your vehicle, on an alignment rack?

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: DriveHard
I drive an Audi A3 that has the normal high degree of negative camber in the rear wheels. I also have 17" rims with 225/45-17 tires. The combination results in rear tires that cup on the inside edge quite quickly. I usually rotate the tires every 5000 miles to fight this, but I got a little over 10,000 miles on the last rotation. As a result, the cupped tires that I have now rotated to the front produce a lot of road noise (a decent roar, and a lower speed almost grinding feel). Will this cupping wear away? Is there anything I can do?


"Cupping" is one of those terms which can mean completely different things to different people. Do you really mean "cupping":

...or do you actually mean heel/toe wear:

Also look here...

You can "diagnose" heel/toe wear by running your hand along the tread area in one direction of rotation and then the other. One direction it feels smooth, the other it catches your hand.

Heel/toe wear can happen for all kinds of reasons and German sports suspension cars seem to do it a far bit. The BMW E39 does it on the outside edges of the front tires no matter how it is aligned, unless there is a continuous tread pattern about 1" in from the edge. Take a look at the Toyo T1R tread pattern compared to the old T1S - the T1R's continuous band at this location specifically addresses this sort of wear.

H/T wear can also happen from simple acceleration and braking. My winter tires get this because the rears mostly "drive" and provide much less braking while the fronts are opposite. They will heel/toe wear across the entire face of the tire in opposing directions front/rear.

 

[The Critic]

Some tires seem to be more prone to cupping, regardless of the alignment settings.

Also, negative camber does cause additional wear on tires, but the situation is exacerbated if the toe is not set correctly. I've seen Prii with -1.6 deg of negative camber and the tires still wear OK as long as the toe was within specs.

 

[Artem]

A friend of mine has cupping on his 08 Honda Civic Si with stock suspension.

I have aftermarket suspension on my 07 Si and have NO cupping.

I'm also running much more aggressive camber then the factory could ever achieve and still no cupping.

I highly doubt its the camber settings that are chewing up these tires. Its the suspension setup itself.

 

[DriveHard]

I guess I stand corrected, it is heal/tow wear. Very evident on the inside shoulder of the tire. This is my second Audi/VW vehicle, and from the research I have done it is VERY common on the rear tires, especially when running low profile / wider tires (although this is a stock size).

I don't know the alignment specs, but I will do some looking. If I remember correctly, the camber is not adjustable on the rear in these cars.

Thanks for the help...looks like I have 20,000+ more miles of roaring down the road.

 

[Hokiefyd]

In my experience, heel/toe wear is highly dependent on toe. The more neutral the toe setting, the less prone the tires are to heel/toe wear. My guess is your Audi may have some negative toe combined with negative camber, which may combine to produce a dramatic heel/toe wear pattern.

Check to see if there are camber kits for the rear of the car. I don't know how that suspension is designed, but on our MDX, camber was not initially adjustable from the factory. But Honda/Acura sells a replacement upper arm that is adjustable, and I had that installed on our MDX to correct a camber problem in the back.

 

[rpn453]

When I first met my last girlfriend, she had horrible cupping on her front tires due to alignment issues. The tires were quite noisy, but she was willing to put up with the noise rather than replace them. I used a palm sander with some coarse sandpaper to smooth the inner tread blocks out and they're now tolerable. You could try that. It should work for feathering too.

Like others here, I would look at adjusting the toe rather than camber. My Mazda3 has plenty of rear camber and absolutely no abnormal tire wear. Worn out suspension bushings would also cause this problem. Are the wheels stock? Wheels with increased outset could be a contributing factor.

 

[DriveHard]

Upon further research, you gents are correct, its a tow issue on the rear. Thanks for all the help. Now, I just need to find out how to adjust it.
DH

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Artem
A friend of mine has cupping on his 08 Honda Civic Si with stock suspension.

I have aftermarket suspension on my 07 Si and have NO cupping.

True cupping (as shown in the picture I posted) is generally caused by worn suspension. Stiff/low/stock has nothing to do with it - "worn out" vs. "working" will usually determine whether cupping happens or not. An out-of-balance wheel assembly plus a blown shock can cup a tire pretty quickly I believe.

I've never suffered from cupping, but have experienced plenty of feathering / heel-toe wear.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: DriveHard
........If I remember correctly, the camber is not adjustable on the rear in these cars......


What you mean is that there is no factory built-in adjustability. ALL alignment settings are adjustable - but it might take an eccentric bolt, or slotting some holes - stuff like that. That's why it pays to find a guy you knows about thisa stuff.

I am of the opinion that if a guy agrees with the following statement, he knows what he is doing:

Published alignment tolerances are too wide. To get good tire wear, you need to be within the inner half of the tolerance.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Just don't be one of the idjits who drills out their frame and creates a weak spot at a suspension hard point!

I can't tell you how many guys around here with lowered trucks have had frame issues when they start cutting/slotting/drilling their frames to alter alignments.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Just don't be one of the idjits who drills out their frame and creates a weak spot at a suspension hard point!

I can't tell you how many guys around here with lowered trucks have had frame issues when they start cutting/slotting/drilling their frames to alter alignments.


Yes, you have to know what you are doing when you go about slotting locating points. Most folks have no idea what kind of problems they could creating if they chose the wrong way to do this.

 

[71Chevyguy]

Being someone that has worked at a used car dealer, I have learned many tricks on how to make cars "seem" like they are in good shape. One fix for noisy tires that were feathered like you say yours are is to move them to the front but make sure that the raised edges in the tread are spinning towards the front of the vehicle. So this may mean that if you rotate them you may not be able to cross them to the front but may have to keep them on the same side assuming your tires are not directional. Done this many times on cars that had seriously torn up tires and it quieted them down quite a bit.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: DriveHard
I guess I stand corrected, it is heal/tow wear. Very evident on the inside shoulder of the tire. This is my second Audi/VW vehicle, and from the research I have done it is VERY common on the rear tires, especially when running low profile / wider tires (although this is a stock size).

I don't know the alignment specs, but I will do some looking. If I remember correctly, the camber is not adjustable on the rear in these cars.

Thanks for the help...looks like I have 20,000+ more miles of roaring down the road.


Does Audi recommend rotating tires on your car?

On my Z4 rotating is not recommended. I used to rotate every 3k miles which would affect the handling and the noise levels. It would take about 3k miles for things to normalize then it was time to rotate again.

I have quit rotating them now and the handling is becoming OK but they are still noisy. The next purchase will be a quieter tire with no rotation, and I do not care if the rear tires will wear out prematurely due to the very aggressive negative camber. There is no point to suffer through poor handling and the loud noise.

 

[JHZR2]

That depends upon the tire. On my E30, which has like iron falkens, Ive rotated them each year and they have done really great.

On my MB, rotating has caued funny noise issues