Wow, is this true about GM?
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Originally Posted By: carock
The life span of your car's electronics is highly calculated. The semiconductors have a 12- 15 year life span.
Someone forgot to calculate the computer in my 20 year old 1989 Corolla, then.
Still works perfectly. Never failed once in 218k miles and I don't expect it to fail any time soon. Every electronic part is original on the car and none have failed yet right down to the original digital clock in the dash. I'm not JUST a Toyota fan, though. I know there are an equal number of domestic success stories out there.
The greatest lie out there is that "all cars are created equal and it all comes down to how well you maintain them". Some vehicle / electronics / drivetrain combinations are doomed to fail the moment they roll off of the assembly line no matter how well one maintains them. Some domestics are bulletproof, too. (Ford Crown Vic comes to mind).
The life span of your car's electronics is highly calculated. The semiconductors have a 12- 15 year life span.
Someone forgot to calculate the computer in my 20 year old 1989 Corolla, then.
Still works perfectly. Never failed once in 218k miles and I don't expect it to fail any time soon. Every electronic part is original on the car and none have failed yet right down to the original digital clock in the dash. I'm not JUST a Toyota fan, though. I know there are an equal number of domestic success stories out there.
The greatest lie out there is that "all cars are created equal and it all comes down to how well you maintain them". Some vehicle / electronics / drivetrain combinations are doomed to fail the moment they roll off of the assembly line no matter how well one maintains them. Some domestics are bulletproof, too. (Ford Crown Vic comes to mind).
I don't know, you see beater GM cars and beater Honda and Toyota cars. A lot of the time, it's less about build quality than it is how the car's owner takes care of it. With GM throwing cars at anyone who will take them, you often get folks who just want a cheap car and aren't into maintenance. That's not GM's fault. But it does affect perception of the brand. Likewise, you get nuts like me who think they've been given the esteemed privilege of bowing at the alter of Honda or Toyota, and you may see a little bit more fastidiousness on the maintenance end of things, therefore adding to the reputation of these cars lasting forever. I can't say I think this is 100% of the reason for the perceived difference in build quality between the foreign and domestic cars. But I do think it adds to the issue.
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At least in the 80's and 90's, there was a tremendous difference in build quality between Japanese cars and domestics. Anyone who doesn't think so never spent 12 years in a dual brand dealership (Toyota / GM) as a line technician seeing the side-by-side comparison which was frankly a little frightening.
When GM effectively went bankrupt, I yawned and wondered why it didn't happen years sooner. I spent years in the trenches with these lousy vehicles.
When GM effectively went bankrupt, I yawned and wondered why it didn't happen years sooner. I spent years in the trenches with these lousy vehicles.
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No, I do agree to an extent. We were an all-GM family for most of the 80's (after being all Chrysler for most of the 70's)and suffered through some miserable cars. But I think GM overcame that to a great degree in the past ten years. Sure, there may not have been many desirable GM or Ford cars. But I see just as many late 90s-early 00's Impalas and Malibus solidiering on down the road as I do Accords of the same vintage. And all those "rental" Tauruses seem to be indestructible.
Kestas
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Originally Posted By: carock
... I asked "what types of salt did you advise them to use?" His reply "salts that attacked foreign steels faster than domestic steels.
That's an answer pulled out of the air with no technical merit. He was having fun with you.
... I asked "what types of salt did you advise them to use?" His reply "salts that attacked foreign steels faster than domestic steels.
That's an answer pulled out of the air with no technical merit. He was having fun with you.
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: BrianWC
No, you're exactly right. Station wagons were so out of vogue by the 80's. First, every mom had to have a minivan. Then, when the 90's rolled around, the SUV craze was driven by a quest to get out of those things. But the point is, there would have been no SUV craze if people weren't buying them. You can't convince EVERYONE that they need a certain car.
No, haven't you been paying attention? GM put something in our water that made us all wake up one morning and want to buy an SUV.
That something was advertising.
Originally Posted By: BrianWC
No, you're exactly right. Station wagons were so out of vogue by the 80's. First, every mom had to have a minivan. Then, when the 90's rolled around, the SUV craze was driven by a quest to get out of those things. But the point is, there would have been no SUV craze if people weren't buying them. You can't convince EVERYONE that they need a certain car.
No, haven't you been paying attention? GM put something in our water that made us all wake up one morning and want to buy an SUV.
That something was advertising.
Kestas
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I disagree. People have to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame it on advertising.
When I was in grade school, my parents taught me a number of important lessons, including:
- Do your homework
- Don't talk to strangers
- Don't believe everything you see in advertising
How weak-minded does a person have to be, to be led around by the nose with corporate advertising?
When I was in grade school, my parents taught me a number of important lessons, including:
- Do your homework
- Don't talk to strangers
- Don't believe everything you see in advertising
How weak-minded does a person have to be, to be led around by the nose with corporate advertising?
Originally Posted By: jcwit
That something was advertising.
People aren't that dumb. If the most advertising sold the most cars, everyone would be driving a Pontiac Aztec; its advertising was EVERYWHERE when that car was new. I can still see the ads in my dreams.
That something was advertising.
People aren't that dumb. If the most advertising sold the most cars, everyone would be driving a Pontiac Aztec; its advertising was EVERYWHERE when that car was new. I can still see the ads in my dreams.
Exactly. That thing had the biggest hype in years. I was in the target demographic at the time. I can't count on no hands how many of my friends bought one. When we bought our CR-V, I mentioned to my wife that maybe we should at least LOOK at an Aztec since it was so cheap. Thankfully, that was a VERY brief thought.
But I hear used ones are getting popular with teen drivers now...
But I hear used ones are getting popular with teen drivers now...
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: jcwit
That something was advertising.
People aren't that dumb. If the most advertising sold the most cars, everyone would be driving a Pontiac Aztec; its advertising was EVERYWHERE when that car was new. I can still see the ads in my dreams.
Ya right, thats why so many people got hooked on cigs a few decads ago, now then the ads on TV and mags have turned that around and many are quiting. Say what you will but the masses are led by advertising, why else would companies spend millions doing it?
And granted folks need to be responsiable for their actions, but that doesn't seem to be the case today. If this would happen there would be an awful lot on lawyers out of business very shortly.
Not saying people are dumb but by and large many are being lead down the primrose path. One only has to look at history to see this. Hitler lead a whole nation willingly down the aformentioned path.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
That something was advertising.
People aren't that dumb. If the most advertising sold the most cars, everyone would be driving a Pontiac Aztec; its advertising was EVERYWHERE when that car was new. I can still see the ads in my dreams.
Ya right, thats why so many people got hooked on cigs a few decads ago, now then the ads on TV and mags have turned that around and many are quiting. Say what you will but the masses are led by advertising, why else would companies spend millions doing it?
And granted folks need to be responsiable for their actions, but that doesn't seem to be the case today. If this would happen there would be an awful lot on lawyers out of business very shortly.
Not saying people are dumb but by and large many are being lead down the primrose path. One only has to look at history to see this. Hitler lead a whole nation willingly down the aformentioned path.
The iPod is my favorite example of planned obsolescence. It has a non-replaceable battery and the battery will be worn out after about a year of daily charges. Current models last a bit longer but not by much.
When asked about this, Steve Jobs responded that people should plan to upgrade to a new iPod each year anyway, so why would it be a problem?
When asked about this, Steve Jobs responded that people should plan to upgrade to a new iPod each year anyway, so why would it be a problem?
Well ya gotta admite that that is a prime example of planned obsolescence.
Originally Posted By: Lorenzo
The iPod is my favorite example of planned obsolescence. It has a non-replaceable battery and the battery will be worn out after about a year of daily charges. Current models last a bit longer but not by much.
When asked about this, Steve Jobs responded that people should plan to upgrade to a new iPod each year anyway, so why would it be a problem?
Not quite. Excerpt from Apple's website:
Quote:
iPod Owners
Your one-year warranty includes replacement coverage for a defective battery. You can extend your coverage to two years from the date of your iPod purchase with the AppleCare Protection Plan for iPod. During the plan’s coverage period, Apple will replace the battery if it drops below 50% of its original capacity. If it is out of warranty, Apple offers a battery replacement for $49 (iPod shuffle), $59 (iPod nano and classic), $79 (iPod touch) plus $6.95 shipping, subject to local tax. Apple disposes of your battery in an environmentally friendly manner.
When the iPod first debuted, there was no plan in place to replace batteries. This was remedied after much criticism. You can either get an extended warranty that covers battery replacement beyond the first year, send in your iPod for battery replacement for around $60 depending on the model, or if you prefer to save money, you can buy a 3rd party battery online and get instructions on how to replace it yourself.
The iPod is my favorite example of planned obsolescence. It has a non-replaceable battery and the battery will be worn out after about a year of daily charges. Current models last a bit longer but not by much.
When asked about this, Steve Jobs responded that people should plan to upgrade to a new iPod each year anyway, so why would it be a problem?
Not quite. Excerpt from Apple's website:
Quote:
iPod Owners
Your one-year warranty includes replacement coverage for a defective battery. You can extend your coverage to two years from the date of your iPod purchase with the AppleCare Protection Plan for iPod. During the plan’s coverage period, Apple will replace the battery if it drops below 50% of its original capacity. If it is out of warranty, Apple offers a battery replacement for $49 (iPod shuffle), $59 (iPod nano and classic), $79 (iPod touch) plus $6.95 shipping, subject to local tax. Apple disposes of your battery in an environmentally friendly manner.
When the iPod first debuted, there was no plan in place to replace batteries. This was remedied after much criticism. You can either get an extended warranty that covers battery replacement beyond the first year, send in your iPod for battery replacement for around $60 depending on the model, or if you prefer to save money, you can buy a 3rd party battery online and get instructions on how to replace it yourself.
Good lithium ion cells should last 2000 cycles.
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
At least in the 80's and 90's, there was a tremendous difference in build quality between Japanese cars and domestics. Anyone who doesn't think so never spent 12 years in a dual brand dealership (Toyota / GM) as a line technician seeing the side-by-side comparison which was frankly a little frightening.
Growing up we had a number of GM cars, mainly Buick Regal's and Olds' Cutlasses. All of them turned the odometer at least once and were sold in perfectly serviceable condition. I myself have owned 80's, 90's, and 00 GM W-body cars, and while they haven't been perfect they've been good cars. Sold my last one with 194K, running fine with all the accessories working.
A friend of mine has been put through the wringer with his 1999 Toyota 4Runner, transmission has been failing intermittently for thousands of miles, and finally started refusing to engage gear. It also had a number of other issues, like a failed starter, a busted power window antenna, a SES light for the emissions system, etc. Of course, his thought is "it was a good car" and he bought another Toyota.
Had it been a GM I can imagine the "what a piece" comments and the advice from all the so-called "experts" telling him to buy foreign.
The only thing Toyota has over GM is a marketing machine set to "brainwash".
At least in the 80's and 90's, there was a tremendous difference in build quality between Japanese cars and domestics. Anyone who doesn't think so never spent 12 years in a dual brand dealership (Toyota / GM) as a line technician seeing the side-by-side comparison which was frankly a little frightening.
Growing up we had a number of GM cars, mainly Buick Regal's and Olds' Cutlasses. All of them turned the odometer at least once and were sold in perfectly serviceable condition. I myself have owned 80's, 90's, and 00 GM W-body cars, and while they haven't been perfect they've been good cars. Sold my last one with 194K, running fine with all the accessories working.
A friend of mine has been put through the wringer with his 1999 Toyota 4Runner, transmission has been failing intermittently for thousands of miles, and finally started refusing to engage gear. It also had a number of other issues, like a failed starter, a busted power window antenna, a SES light for the emissions system, etc. Of course, his thought is "it was a good car" and he bought another Toyota.
The only thing Toyota has over GM is a marketing machine set to "brainwash".
No matter what car you drive-you have to replace them every 3-6 years in this third world country we call Michigan. Between the weather and the sad roads, cars don't last long here.
I've seen a 3 year Kia Rio toasted here. Junkyard bound at 56k because of a nice pothole.....actually blew the engine.
I've seen a 3 year Kia Rio toasted here. Junkyard bound at 56k because of a nice pothole.....actually blew the engine.
I'm sorry, I don't see how you HAVE TO replace a car every 3-6 years just because of rough operating conditions???
The example you used was an accident and should be covered by car insurance, how is it car's foult????
In Ontario, we have as tough conditions as they come for running cars, roads are white with salt in winter, wild temp. swings, one week it could be 0C and the other -20C, then go to +5C. Yet we have plenty of cars on the road that are 10+ years old. My father just a month ago sold his 95 Accord for a used 2006 Altima. The Accord was in good running condition, slight oil leak from the engine, and usual rust spots in the fenders. But my father kept up with the maintenance and kept the rust at bay, and he bough that Accord used as well, the only reason he sold it was that he just wanted something newer, Honda could heve served him at least another 2 years.
I seriously don't see how one can trash a car in 3 years even with 0 maintenance (except oil changes)
The example you used was an accident and should be covered by car insurance, how is it car's foult????
In Ontario, we have as tough conditions as they come for running cars, roads are white with salt in winter, wild temp. swings, one week it could be 0C and the other -20C, then go to +5C. Yet we have plenty of cars on the road that are 10+ years old. My father just a month ago sold his 95 Accord for a used 2006 Altima. The Accord was in good running condition, slight oil leak from the engine, and usual rust spots in the fenders. But my father kept up with the maintenance and kept the rust at bay, and he bough that Accord used as well, the only reason he sold it was that he just wanted something newer, Honda could heve served him at least another 2 years.
I seriously don't see how one can trash a car in 3 years even with 0 maintenance (except oil changes)
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