Why not a diesel hybrid?

[Gary Allan]

Yes, it "meets Euro 4 emissions standards" ..not 2007 EPA emissions standards.

We'll never see it until it costs enough to fuel a towncar for a decade.

btw- why would any vehicle need a 2.7 turbo diesel for hybrid use? The idea of a hybrid it "peak shaving" in terms of demand that the engine cannot provide ..while having capacity to exceed the need enough to recharge the batteries over typical usage.

 

[JHZR2]

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:

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See, the cost of entry, IMO isnt a big issue.

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That depends. If that were true consumer wide..then every full size pickup owner would own a Powerstroke or a Cummins ..DuraMax. That's only a few grand more ..yet uses about 33%-45% less fuel under most practical conditions

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Interesting point... but I think there are a number of factors not considered...

-diesel engine options are a $4000+ option... couple that to the cost of entry for a 2500 series truck instead of the more common 1500 series, and what do you get? A delta price of close to $10k, which is meaningful (forget what kind of a killer deal 1sttruck got

).

-per the first point, diesel isnt available in a 1500 or mini truck... think how VW jettras and similar TDIs sell... dont you think a diesel would sell if in the right package for a truck?

-People equate diesel with dumptrucks spewing black smoke

-people equate diesels with GM issues in the early 80s.

And so there is an inherent barrier to entry for diesel tech, regardless... above and beyone cost and availability...

JMH

 

[k1xv]

Assume you could get 50% better fuel mileage with a diesel hybrid than with a straight diesel. Further assume that the straight diesel got 40 mpg, which a Diesel Jetta is capable of. So a diesel-hybrid jetta would get 60 mpg.

That means that the straight diesel would take 2.5 gallons to go 100 miles, and the hybrid would take approximately 1.67 gallons. The difference is 0.83 gallons for 100 miles.

Assume diesel fuel costs $4 a gallon (its not there yet, but I would not be surprised). $4 x 0.83 = approx. $3.32 fuel savings per 100 miles for the hybrid. However, assume the hybrid costs $3500 more initial cost. You would have to drive over 100,000 miles to amortize the $3500. And at that point, you probably would have to replace the batteries for ????? and might have some hybrid specific maintenance issues along the way.

And would it cost you more to junk the hybrid because of the batteries?

And hybrids do not offer much advantage in long distance, interstate type driving, because regenerative braking provide much of the fuel economy savings.

I think I would prefer to stick with the simpler non-hybrid diesel. I think the tax benefits specific to hybrids is distorting the economics of the hybrid car market.

 

[JHZR2]

agreed

 

[Gary Allan]

Good points JHZR2. Just playing a protagonist in our environmental psychodrama

. Actually, I'd never buy a full size pickup without it being a diesel, regardless of the capital expenditure. What I will point out to K1xv is that the buy back isn't linear. The cost of fuel goes up over the typical 100k of use. That alteration in costs could shorten the buy back to within the typical financed period.

 

[carock]

Are you guys over estimating the cost for replacement hybrid batteries? The cost for a replacement Prius battery is only $699. I could be wrong, I don't know.

 

[JHZR2]

Is that subsidized or something?

I guess a good estimate is how many group 49 lead-acid battery equivalents the prius has in its undercarriage... This could be estimated by weights...

The chemistry used in the prius batteries may be more expensive, or not... compared to LA... but we at least have good cost metrics with them for which to get a first estimate.

JMH

 

[k1xv]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Good points JHZR2. Just playing a protagonist in our environmental psychodrama

. Actually, I'd never buy a full size pickup without it being a diesel, regardless of the capital expenditure. What I will point out to K1xv is that the buy back isn't linear. The cost of fuel goes up over the typical 100k of use. That alteration in costs could shorten the buy back to within the typical financed period.

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That is why I selected $4 per gallon. Diesel here is now at $2.959 and if it is $5.05 at 100K miles, that averages out to about $4 if you assume a linear increase in prices.

 

[miraCRD]

I think most of you are thinking of a diesel-electric hybrid in terms of the current crop of gasoline electric hybrids like the Prius.

I'd love to see the type of diesel-electric "hybrid" system that's been used on every diesel locomotive for over 50 years, applied to passenger cars and trucks. A diesel loco has a diesel engine powering an electric generator. That's all it does....produce electricity...which then powers INDIVIDUAL high torque electric motors located at the wheels.

Why couldn't the same principal be applied to cars on an appropriately smaller scale? There is a small diesel engine and generator under the hood powering electric motors at the wheels (or at the axels)? You don't need to shut it down at lights. You don't even need a transmission because the driving power is right at the wheels being controlled by the current amount. On a small passenger car you could probably just use a single electric motor of adequate power on one wheel...after all, most current cars get all of their power to the road through one wheel.

Think of the train example...and the loads they can pull. Obviously you can get tremendous power this way. And there's a reason they use diesel power; it's inherantly more efficient at extracting energy from the fuel source.

I think the current batch of car hybrids would be blown away if a manufacturer could come out with a vehicle that used this system.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Hey Gary!

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Only a dedicated greenie who had too much money on their hands would entertain the idea of doing "good" for someone else, besides themselves, to profit from it.

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Aren't we still at that point with the Prius and hybrids in general? The higher up-front cost of the hybrid (vs. a standard vehicle of the same size) doesn't break even until, what, 200,000 miles, or something along those lines? I saw some figures that made it a real reach to justify if economics is the sole consideration.

 

[oilyriser]

Add the labor cost of the time and driving required to fill your tank, when comparing vehicles of radically different fuel economy.

You can have a compression release mechanism just like in a lawnmower. Do one revolution with no compression, and then fire it up once it's spinning fast.

 

[javacontour]

quote:

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Originally posted by miraCRD:
I think most of you are thinking of a diesel-electric hybrid in terms of the current crop of gasoline electric hybrids like the Prius.

I'd love to see the type of diesel-electric "hybrid" system that's been used on every diesel locomotive for over 50 years, applied to passenger cars and trucks. A diesel loco has a diesel engine powering an electric generator. That's all it does....produce electricity...which then powers INDIVIDUAL high torque electric motors located at the wheels.

Why couldn't the same principal be applied to cars on an appropriately smaller scale? There is a small diesel engine and generator under the hood powering electric motors at the wheels (or at the axels)? You don't need to shut it down at lights. You don't even need a transmission because the driving power is right at the wheels being controlled by the current amount. On a small passenger car you could probably just use a single electric motor of adequate power on one wheel...after all, most current cars get all of their power to the road through one wheel.

Think of the train example...and the loads they can pull. Obviously you can get tremendous power this way. And there's a reason they use diesel power; it's inherantly more efficient at extracting energy from the fuel source.

I think the current batch of car hybrids would be blown away if a manufacturer could come out with a vehicle that used this system.

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Yeah, I saw some other really smart, good looking guy mention that here.

Turbo Diesel Electric Hybrid a la Locomotive

 

[GMorg]

toocrazy2yoo wrote "Aren't we still at that point with the Prius..."

I think that current hybrids are purchased to make the purchaser feel good about themselves. They do not yet save money for the purchaser in most cases.

miraCRD wrote: "Why couldn't the same principal be applied to cars on an appropriately smaller scale?"

If one scaled the locomotive example to a passenger car, including the thrust to weight ratio, then 0 to 60 mph would be what? 45 minutes, an hour...

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

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Originally posted by miraCRD:

I'd love to see the type of diesel-electric "hybrid" system that's been used on every diesel locomotive for over 50 years, applied to passenger cars and trucks. A diesel loco has a diesel engine powering an electric generator. That's all it does....produce electricity...which then powers INDIVIDUAL high torque electric motors located at the wheels.

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The key then would be to ensure that the genset and motor efficiency are at least as good if not better than a current drivetrain setup (hard to do in an application so small), and that the size and weight are comparable at such efficiencies. Very difficult...

Were going to electric drive on Navy ships, but for different reasons.

JMH

 

[Alcibiades]

"I think that current hybrids are purchased to make the purchaser feel good about themselves."

In most cases, correct. And count that as evidence for my earlier claim that we do, as a matter of everyday practice, think of self-interest in terms much broader than just economics, although economics is certainly a major factor.

I like the locomotive model, and wonder how practicable that would be. It seems simple enough. My original thought was that a diesel hybrid would never be very useful for long trips, that its specific purpose would be for the interests of those living in cities, doing little but stop-and-go driving, who want really good mpg and want to drastically cut emissions for all living near.

But if the train model we applied, that could well make it practicable for long trip use as well.

Cool thoughts.

 

[labman]

quote:

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Originally posted by GMorg:
snip....

I think that current hybrids are purchased to make the purchaser feel good about themselves. snip....

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So are Hummers. For most people, what they are driving is an image statement. They make it work for their needs. Right now, real men drive trucks, the bigger the better, whether they have any real need or not. If everybody needs a truck or SUV, why do I so seldom see one with anything more than 1-2 people?

I see absolutely no advantage to using electric motors for highway cruising. We still haven't had the real soon now breakthrough in batteries to make them practical. Using the locomotive option makes no sense since the diesel would need to be big enough to supply all the power needed for acceleration. The real trick, would be a smaller diesel and bigger batteries. Batteries big enough that the diesel might not even start up on short trips. Recharge the batteries at home at a much lower KWH rate using coal or nukes instead of oil. Then on a longer trip, fire up the diesel when the batteries get down to a certain reserve. Maybe even fire it up when you need the extra acceleration.

 

[crw]

One thing going back to the beginning of this thread... you're making the assumption that diesel is going to $6.00 a gallon??? I think it's much more likely to go under $2.00 a gallon than go up that high. (I said, "I THINK,..." nobody really knows!)

The commoditities market is in the middle of a huge bubble, similar to the tech bubble of 2000. Supply is outpacing demand, and has been since 2003. This condition of $70 oil may continue for a while, but each day that more and more supply is hitting the market makes it that much more SURE that the bubble will burst.

I realize that we could debate this forever, and I don't want to get into a long drawn out argument about it. (After all, the futures market IS the argument.) I'm just saying... today's sure thing might be tommorrow's bad idea. And there is the problem,... who is going to commit to certain technologies with the chance that the rug could be pulled out from under them?

 

[bfg9k]

http://media.ford.com/products/pres...le_id=1238&press_subsection_id=423&make_id=93

The Mercury Meta One concept from 2005 is a PZEV-capable twin-turbo diesel-electric hybrid car. 248 hp, 431 ft-lb of torque. Somewhere I founda guess of mpg on the web in the high 20's.

 

[crw]

That's fine, like I say, you're on the side of the speculators. Those that say that supply is drying up and soon we won't have it anymore. I'm on the side of those that say that each and every day more oil is being produced and this increased production is outstripping demand. Interestingly, this increased production started way back before the price rise. Now that the price has risen, EVEN MORE will be produced because there is that much more incentive to produce.....

Like I say, we can agree to disagree. I think the price will be closer to $40 in a year or two than $100. I believe the only reason it's $70 now is that people think we're running out. I believe the world is still awash in oil, and we will have plenty for some time to come. On the other hand, I kind of wish we would be left with some incentive to move toward a primarily ethanol based system. Hybrids still burn the oil you say is going away....? What's a few more miles if the oil is going away?

I'm impressed with the forward thinking in Brasil, where consumers already have the choice. Oil goes up, they buy ethanol. Oil goes down, they buy gas.
That is the type of vehicle we need, as well as a supply of ethanol.

 

[John Gates]

quote:

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Originally posted by miraCRD:
On a small passenger car you could probably just use a single electric motor of adequate power on one wheel...after all, most current cars get all of their power to the road through one wheel.

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I have heard this misconception before. The only thing I can think of is where people have seen one wheel spin when a car is stuck in something slippery. A standard open differential is designed so that it divides torque equally between both wheels. This is still the case in the wheelspin example, the torque is equal on both sides but one is more slippery so the wheel spins. If you put a motor on only one wheel it would pull to that side when you accelerated. You want at least two.