Why not a diesel hybrid?

[bob_ninja]

crw,

One of the biggest new developments/sources are oil sands in Canada. I don't know exact numbers. I heard the number is around $30/barrel to produce. Note that this is the current cost when they only started processing sand on the surface. In the future it will get more expensive.

Older fields require increasing investment to squeeze out remaining oil, so again higher cost of extraction. Hence for now average cost (excluding oil speculators and other crap) will be $30ish or $40ish per barrel.

Sure oil won't just go away over night. However, the costs can stay high and keep rising. It could push out a lot of marginal use including some types of transportation needs.

Hybrids are a stepping stone. Eventually electric and other renewable energy forms will dominate. Diesel is interesting as it is close to some bio-fuels that are renewable. Many other parts of the world are looking at and experimenting with other fuel types.

 

[bob_ninja]

JHZR2,
Prius and most hybrids don't use led-acid, but the NiMH batteries which are much ligther. They have a higher energy density per unit weight and also take less space (I believe).

crw,
"... but each day that more and more supply is hitting the market makes it that much more SURE that the bubble will burst."

Really? Where from? At what price? If this new oil cost $100/barrel to extract would this bubble burst? Would gas prices decline "... to go under $2.00 a gallon ..."?

Comparison with the past bubbles is not correct as we have already extracted vast amounts of oil since then, as well as consumption today is vastly different from then (both positive as more efficient engines and ngative as more cars in use). Past is not a very good guide for the future in this case.

I think that the cost/benefit analysis most people perform is far too simplistic. The principal assumption everyone is making is:

"Existence of a stable supply that is always sufficient for total demand."

Meaning that when you go to a station you don't wonder if they'll have fuel for sale. You assume it is always available. Also you assume that available fuel product and price are stable, don't oscillate too much. The trouble is these assumptions are no longer valid.

Starting with price, we already see big changes in a short time periods. It is already the fact of life and there is no indication it will go away soon. On the contrary political scene gets more and more complicated every day. So cost comparison based on the current fuel prices for a vehicle to be used for 10+ years is not valid. You must include a delta factor of +/- 300% or whatever you feel comfortable with. For instance, it is perfectly reasonable for fuel to cost $10/gallon in 10 years.

Second, availability will become even bigger problem than price. At some point stations will in fact lack fuel product and we will be faced with the lack of fuel. At that point what is the value of a machine that can keep going because it still has fuel in its tank compared to a regular vehicle that is empty??? If you are stuck some place do you mind paying few extra bucks for batteries or solar panels, whatever will give you those extra miles to get to where you need to be when stations are empty and/or have long queues?

Opporutnity and necessity costs are ignored by everyone, yet are very high. When you need to get to work and drop off your kid at day care and stations are empty you'll pay for hybrids and batteries, pay few thousand dollars extra and be very glad.

In summary, there is no more oil, get over it. Ignore hybrids today all you want. Tomorrow there will be nothing else for sale and you'll have no choice.

 

[LarryL]

Isn't the best solution to find a way to get people to drive smaller cars? If cars the size of a Fit or Yaris were given tax advantages and allowed in car pool lanes with one person you might get more people driving them. You won't have expensive technology and and batteries to worry about down the road when the cars gets some miles on it and you don't need special fuel. The tax thing will never happen because legislators would worry about losing votes. The might and have votes token changes, but they get cancelled, sooner or later. The sure thing is to start driving a small car and hope you don't get killed by someone in a big car or truck.

 

[Screwdriver]

Smaller cars are a good first step. But countries like India, China and parts of Europe all have small cars that easily average 45 mpgs. That hasn't solved their fuel problems either.

Hybrids are a better choice in my opinion. Sure they have their shortcomings, but the technologies involved are still in their infancy. The next generation of the Prius is predicted to achieve 60-70 mpgs in real world driving and will be a plug in Hybrid.

For some, it is hard to see that the Hybrid is the only practical "bridge" between the wasteful combustion engine and a future zero emissions automobile.

 

[eljefino]

They allow "preppy" hybrids in the carpool lanes but would never allow "simple" 40mpg technology in. Then poor people with 10 year old clunkers would share that privledge with the rich new-prius-preppy-buyers.

I'd love to see a law where any vehicle under 15000 lbs not rated more than 30 mpg highway, with one occupant, gets a speed limit of 55, but I'm not holding my breath. Carpool, downsize, or slow down-- there are your options.

The present prius is "plug in capable" with a simple hack but they had to leave a button off the dash (the harness is in place) to satisfy an EPA requirement.

 

[Alcibiades]

Wow, eljefino, a law like that should would make a lot of voters happy.

Just kidding, but actually it's a good idea.

I also agree with both LarryL and Screwdriver. (Who says we can't take both small steps at once?) If we are to maintain a free market, there just be choices to make, particularly because the "simple" technology still usually gets better highway miles than the hybrids, meaning it would make some sense to allow them in carpool lanes with one occupant.

Furthermore, I wonder how many who drive Sequoias really need them and wouldn't be almost as happy in a RAV4, or Expedition to Escape, Avalon to Camry, and the like. Even changes like that, on a mass scale, would reduce consumption quite a lot. Of couse such a change would have to occur by the free will of consumers, rather than legislation, in order to really work, which means changing both attitudes and aesthetic habituation. (I think the equation of bigness with impressiveness is fundamentally an aesthetic judgment.) Of course, there are large families that need more room, and others with various other considerations.

 

[hominid7]

Forgive me if the obvious has already been stated, but the "instant on" needs of a hybrid automobile would seem to me to not allow a diesel to operate in that environment.

Push down the gas pedal, then wait for the glow plug to warm, then the engine comes on, just not real efficient.

If i were given the choice of buying a turbo diesel, or buying a hybrid-gas, there would be no choice, i'd buy the turbo diesel every time without hesitation.

The Dodge Sprinter is a good example of a HUGE vehicle that can carry more than a hummer and still get 30 MPG. Thanks to its Benz Turbo Diesel.

 

[Gary Allan]

Push down the gas pedal, then wait for the glow plug to warm, then the engine comes on, just not real efficient.


Now granted I haven't had a diesel passenger car since 1980 ..but my glow plugs were only necessary for the cold starts. Starting back up from any momentary stop (up to 10 minutes or maybe even more) never required waiting for the little glow thingy to either come on ..or (I think) go out (it's been a long time).


The EPA estimates were not on the Spriter (Dodge) site. All the others were ..but not the Sprinter.

This is what they said about low operating cost.

With an average fuel economy of up to 25* miles per gallon, Dodge Sprinter's engine efficiency far outpaces any of our competition's vans or minibuses. It also has an impressive fuel tank that will give you a range of about 660 miles.
* Harmonic average fuel economy for 2500 140-inch-wheelbase Passenger Van at 50-percent load capacity. Results based on SAE test J1082 as conducted by FEV Engine Technology, Inc.

 

[LarryL]

For even a small diesel, it needs to be on, get heat into it and stay hot to run well. What's needed is a small turbo diesel, first step. Second step would be electric assist, in the future, with a recovery system built into the braking. Small steps. Then we need to tie and gag the politicans and pass some laws that promote small cars, step three. Then we need to start pouring more concrete. No one is producing anything useful while stuck in traffic, and Americans don't do no stinking trains, step four. The productivity gained by pouring concrete, driving little turbo diesels and ducking some taxes would be like cash in the pocket to the economy. Final step, step five, pay people to sell their gas hog and buy one of the new generation commuters. Forget trying to make chu-chu trains work or hydrogen cars, get going with stuff we can have very quickly, without having to invent anything or build infrastructure that isn't there, like hydrogen stations. Just pay the politicans some money so they don't have to steal it from us, passing legistation for big corportations. Deliver it to them at a resort in a brown paper bag, so they will recogonize it, right away.

 

[carock]

The reason cars do not use the locomotive system is that you actually get much better efficiency from 1) a transmission with an electric motor, and 2) I am told that if you run all the numbers, it is lighter and more efficient to have a single motor drive all the wheels. I believe that the first car designed by Dr. Porsche in the 1910's was exactly the locomotive model described: a diesel engine powering a generator/battery, powering an electric motor on each wheel.

 

[TomJones76]

quote:

---

Originally posted by eljefino:
SNIP

The present prius is "plug in capable" with a simple hack but they had to leave a button off the dash (the harness is in place) to satisfy an EPA requirement.

---

What was the EPA's rationale?
Why in the world would that offend them?

 

[Sumerduckman]

Check out these links:

http://www.cars.com/go/news/Story.j...storyaAP&subject=recent&referer=&aff=national

http://trucks.about.com/cs/militarytrucks/a/gm_miltary.htm

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/100_news/astra_011005.html

http://www.isecorp.com/ise_products_services/diesel_hybrid_drive_system/

The first is gas, the rest Diesel, and all intersesting.

 

[the_oil_dealer]

lol - hybrids arent designed to "save the environment" or "save the consumer money". Theyre REALLY old 'alternative fuel' technologies that ensure that gasoline is used in some way. Notice how the price of diesel has pretty much leveled with gas? The cost is probably the same to produce, however the user gets more energy from the diesel. We, as large oil, wouldnt want to give consumers a REALLY good deal, would we? In North America, it wouldnt be wise. In Europe youre paying testicles and kidneys for the fuel, so sure why not

 

[2Fast4U]

Many people in this thread comment about a diesel hybrid engine not being able to shut down and restart because of the compression.... whoever said a diesel engine would actually shutdown? They could probably run it at idle only as the vehicle used electric.

Most of these other countries where gas prices are outragous rely heavily on diesel powered vehicles. Now with the low sulfur diesel in the us I think we going to see a whole new gen of diesel vehicles .

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by hominid7:
Forgive me if the obvious has already been stated, but the "instant on" needs of a hybrid automobile would seem to me to not allow a diesel to operate in that environment.

Push down the gas pedal, then wait for the glow plug to warm, then the engine comes on, just not real efficient.

---

It's a good thing UPS doen't know that or their diesel trucks wouldn't restart everytime the drive shuts them off to run to someones door with a package.

 

[2Fast4U]

On a quick google search I found this..

GM Selling More Hybrid Diesel-Electric Buses

January 17, 2005 - Tampa joins a growing list of U.S. cities getting GM hybrid buses for ultra-low emissions and better fuel economy. While bus duty cycles vary widely by route and city, “real world experience with hybrid business in 18 U.S. cities shows fuel economy improvement typically greater than 20% and on some routes as high as 55%,” according to GM communications manager Susan Garvaglia.

Another headline.
FedEx to Add up to 75 More Diesel Hybrid Trucks to Fleet
22 April 2005

 

[Shaman]

America needs to learn from Japan. Drop the car size, drop the engine size, tax on engine size or efficiency(I prefer the latter, Japan does the former), and increase the cost of keeping vehicles on the road.

I drive a 660cc Kei-car that gets an average of 13.6 kmpl, or about 31 mpg in what would most amply be described as downtown Dallas traffic, with a 30% scale reduction of roads, distance, and light distances. I pay less on insurance, half what my 2L cost in gas, and road tax was 8000 yen. My 2L was 39500 yen, and the 1L was 20000.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shaman:
America needs to learn from Japan. Drop the car size, drop the engine size, tax on engine size or efficiency(I prefer the latter, Japan does the former), and increase the cost of keeping vehicles on the road.

---

Wholesale application of Japanese solutions to American problems isn't necessarily a good thing to do.

Japan has over three times the population of California on about the same amount of land. California already has too many people.

 

[BlueWorld]

Gotta love the VAG TDI's -

Here are some VAG weight/MPG -

The 1.9 tdi in the 2,943lb A3 gets 64MPG
The 2.0 TDI in the 3,395 lb A6 gets 57MPG
The 3.0 TDI in the 4034 lb A8 gets 44MPG
The 3.0 TDI in the 5,125 lb A6 Allroad gets 43MPG
The 3.0 TDI in the 5,125 lb Q7 gets 34MPG

 

[Thermo1223]

Stop I'm drooling...