I will add that I will top off my m1 hm fill with pyb or m5k,but my century doesn't have any consumption so I don't get to top off. I would probably top off with pyb there too, but a single oci leaves me with more than a half quart of synthetic to save for top off from the 5+ quart jug.
why do people still buy non-synthetic?
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I love when someone asks why use NON-syn/conventional oil, people have to add why they use syn...not that that isn't interesting....but it's just not directly responsive...classic.
The most important thing I have learned in my years on this board is that you must match the application with the lubricant.
My lowest hp/L machine (1997 Miata) gets group 3 or 4 lubricant due to known issues with poor cooling system design and hot spots in the motor.
My highest hp/L machine (1986 GSXR 750) gets group 2+ lubricant due to high fuel dilution and short OCI.
Both solutions give me low wear and are appropriate. Application driven - backed up with analysis!
My lowest hp/L machine (1997 Miata) gets group 3 or 4 lubricant due to known issues with poor cooling system design and hot spots in the motor.
My highest hp/L machine (1986 GSXR 750) gets group 2+ lubricant due to high fuel dilution and short OCI.
Both solutions give me low wear and are appropriate. Application driven - backed up with analysis!
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I went from conventional to synth. and back to conventional again in my Mazda 3 and I came to conclusion that synthetic oil is largely overhyped.
Before I switched to synthetic I had really high hopes for it based on reading BITOG. I expected all sorts of wonderful things to happen when I switch, like a whisper quiet engine during cold winter starts, improved fuel economy, engine that runs so smoothly and quietly that I would not even know when it's running.
But to my amazement none of that happened. I run PP and Castrol Syntec and for about 30k miles nothing happened that was different on dino. Then I switched back to dino and, you can probably already guess that, there was no difference again.
I came to realization that people on this board like to split hair over little things and their use of synthetics is largely driven by "feel good" motives rather than logic and reason.
I know that we have plenty of people that take full advantage of synthetic benefits, but most just do it because they read on the internet that synthetic is superior, so they use it without understanding if the superior aspects of synthetics even play a role in their application or duty cycle.
Spot on! I also went back to conventional. I've seen no reduction in performance. In fact, my car has never run better than on the conventional.
Your post pretty much sums it up.
I went from conventional to synth. and back to conventional again in my Mazda 3 and I came to conclusion that synthetic oil is largely overhyped.
Before I switched to synthetic I had really high hopes for it based on reading BITOG. I expected all sorts of wonderful things to happen when I switch, like a whisper quiet engine during cold winter starts, improved fuel economy, engine that runs so smoothly and quietly that I would not even know when it's running.
But to my amazement none of that happened. I run PP and Castrol Syntec and for about 30k miles nothing happened that was different on dino. Then I switched back to dino and, you can probably already guess that, there was no difference again.
I came to realization that people on this board like to split hair over little things and their use of synthetics is largely driven by "feel good" motives rather than logic and reason.
I know that we have plenty of people that take full advantage of synthetic benefits, but most just do it because they read on the internet that synthetic is superior, so they use it without understanding if the superior aspects of synthetics even play a role in their application or duty cycle.
Spot on! I also went back to conventional. I've seen no reduction in performance. In fact, my car has never run better than on the conventional.
Your post pretty much sums it up.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Besides, what is a "synthetic" oil? The term is almost meaningless these days.
The API and SAE specifications are more meaningful than "synthetic" which is largely a marketing term.
If it's an API SN oil that meets your car makers SAE grade specifications and any other manufacturer specifications, then chances are, you will get 100's of thousands of miles of service from the engine using that oil.
For that matter, what's a "conventional oil" these days? The makers/marketers don't make public what's group I to V. I know around 2000 Mobil went ape over the definition of "synthetic oil", but for the most part who cares as long as if performs well.
I've noticed in recent years that the price of common "conventional oil" has shot through the roof. I'm thinking it's a matter of these products costing a lot more because the latest requirements mean more expensive additives and better quality base oils. If it does the job, why worry so much about how it's marketed? It's at a point where calling something synthetic is mostly marketing fluff.
Besides, what is a "synthetic" oil? The term is almost meaningless these days.
The API and SAE specifications are more meaningful than "synthetic" which is largely a marketing term.
If it's an API SN oil that meets your car makers SAE grade specifications and any other manufacturer specifications, then chances are, you will get 100's of thousands of miles of service from the engine using that oil.
For that matter, what's a "conventional oil" these days? The makers/marketers don't make public what's group I to V. I know around 2000 Mobil went ape over the definition of "synthetic oil", but for the most part who cares as long as if performs well.
I've noticed in recent years that the price of common "conventional oil" has shot through the roof. I'm thinking it's a matter of these products costing a lot more because the latest requirements mean more expensive additives and better quality base oils. If it does the job, why worry so much about how it's marketed? It's at a point where calling something synthetic is mostly marketing fluff.
1 vehicle uses full synthetic (95+% highway use).
2 vehicles conventional (95+% in town stop & go use).
At one point & time I couldn't make up my mind and thought use a semi-blend. Then I figure nah I better go one way or the other.
I think either can do fine used in the right application/conditions with reasonable OCIs, applicable API class and grades.
I'm running the one (synthetic) hoping to work toward extended OCIs after warranty period is over. But it wouldn't kill me (& motor) going conventional if I had to.
2 vehicles conventional (95+% in town stop & go use).
At one point & time I couldn't make up my mind and thought use a semi-blend. Then I figure nah I better go one way or the other.
I think either can do fine used in the right application/conditions with reasonable OCIs, applicable API class and grades.
I'm running the one (synthetic) hoping to work toward extended OCIs after warranty period is over. But it wouldn't kill me (& motor) going conventional if I had to.
Quote:
why do people still buy non-synthetic?
My honda experience has been that the transmission dies on honda AT fluid before the engine dies on SuperTech or similar dino motor oil. If the car dies from a crash, theft or rust, synthetic motor oil does not help the car last longer.
why do people still buy non-synthetic?
My honda experience has been that the transmission dies on honda AT fluid before the engine dies on SuperTech or similar dino motor oil. If the car dies from a crash, theft or rust, synthetic motor oil does not help the car last longer.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
You can look at UOA's done by 2010 FX4, his results have shown that conv. does as well as syn.
2010 FX4
And I assume through all your valuable experience and extensive testing you can find a difference in the performance of these fake vs real synthetics.
Or I'm sure you've chosen to ignore that these fake syns perform the same or better when compared to the real ones and have compared the cost in comparison to the performance.
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
You can look at UOA's done by 2010 FX4, his results have shown that conv. does as well as syn.
2010 FX4
And I assume through all your valuable experience and extensive testing you can find a difference in the performance of these fake vs real synthetics.
Or I'm sure you've chosen to ignore that these fake syns perform the same or better when compared to the real ones and have compared the cost in comparison to the performance.
I'm currently running M1 5w20 in my 03 Crown Vic. I'm at 9,200 miles on the oil and i'm going to change the oil tomorrow. However I am just going to run Mobil HM 5000 this time. Why? Well money is a little tight right now and $24 for 7 quarts of conventional sounds easier on the wallet vs $40 worth of M1. I know that 9k miles with M1 is actually cheaper per mile then 5k miles and conventional oil, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. That's why I go back to conventional over synthetic. Plus it's a 135k mile Crown Vic with a oil cooler i'm sure the engine won't even know the difference lol.
It's kinda all been said already. I chose conventional on some of my vehicles due to my OCI intervals and the fact that the vehicles using it, don't necessarily benefit from a synthetic regardless os what group it is.
What is more important to me, is using an oil that meets/exceeds the manufacturer spec, filter meeting/exceeding the manufacturer spec, and then performing consistent, repeated OCI's moreso than having the absolute best in the crankcase.
I'd wager that few here, if any at all, will push even the worst conventional "dino" oil (that meets the latest API or even Dexos standards), past it's design thresholds, much less any higher quality synthetic! Unless you tell me your commute in your family sedan is a 6 hour long, 170mph, WOT, 7,000rpm on a 120* day, jaunt... Or you're a 6,000+hp, nitro swilling top fuel dragster!
All you're paying for is piece of mind and what lets you sleep better at night.
What is more important to me, is using an oil that meets/exceeds the manufacturer spec, filter meeting/exceeding the manufacturer spec, and then performing consistent, repeated OCI's moreso than having the absolute best in the crankcase.
I'd wager that few here, if any at all, will push even the worst conventional "dino" oil (that meets the latest API or even Dexos standards), past it's design thresholds, much less any higher quality synthetic! Unless you tell me your commute in your family sedan is a 6 hour long, 170mph, WOT, 7,000rpm on a 120* day, jaunt... Or you're a 6,000+hp, nitro swilling top fuel dragster!
All you're paying for is piece of mind and what lets you sleep better at night.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
Ugh. You do realize that the ethylene for the grp iv fluid comes from the same cat cracker as the slack wax, and thus even your precious grp iv base is actually crude derived.
I am NOT promoting syn. oils, you need to stop jumping to conclusions.
I never once said anything in support of "precious" syns., I only said that a syn. may be a grp. 3.
I was only stating to the op that an oil labeled as a syn. may not be a real syn.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
Ugh. You do realize that the ethylene for the grp iv fluid comes from the same cat cracker as the slack wax, and thus even your precious grp iv base is actually crude derived.
I am NOT promoting syn. oils, you need to stop jumping to conclusions.
I never once said anything in support of "precious" syns., I only said that a syn. may be a grp. 3.
I was only stating to the op that an oil labeled as a syn. may not be a real syn.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
You can look at UOA's done by 2010 FX4, his results have shown that conv. does as well as syn.
2010 FX4
And I assume through all your valuable experience and extensive testing you can find a difference in the performance of these fake vs real synthetics.
Or I'm sure you've chosen to ignore that these fake syns perform the same or better when compared to the real ones and have compared the cost in comparison to the performance.
I not ONCE promoted syns. It seems that some here are all too quick to take things wrong and make comments that ad nothing to the conversation.
I have been on the board for some time and learned quite a bit. I may not have posted as much as some but that in no way means that my knowledge is any less that many here.
The op was asking about syn. oils and I only stated that some oils labeled as syn. can be grp.3 and not a real synthetic.
If the op or anyone else is okay with that, then there is no problem. However, if they are wanting a real synthetic, they need to be aware that some oils are not real syns. when they say they are.
Does this mean that a grp.3 oil is bad? NO and I never said they were. It just means that some oils that say syn. may not be and people need to be aware of this fact and to be aware of the cost they may be paying for what they "thought" was an actual synthetic compared to an actual one.
Is $20.00 for a grp.3 a good price compared to $25.00 for a real syn.?
That is what the op and others have to decide but they cant make a real informed decision if they don't know that the oil they are getting may not be a real syn.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
You can look at UOA's done by 2010 FX4, his results have shown that conv. does as well as syn.
2010 FX4
And I assume through all your valuable experience and extensive testing you can find a difference in the performance of these fake vs real synthetics.
Or I'm sure you've chosen to ignore that these fake syns perform the same or better when compared to the real ones and have compared the cost in comparison to the performance.
I not ONCE promoted syns. It seems that some here are all too quick to take things wrong and make comments that ad nothing to the conversation.
I have been on the board for some time and learned quite a bit. I may not have posted as much as some but that in no way means that my knowledge is any less that many here.
The op was asking about syn. oils and I only stated that some oils labeled as syn. can be grp.3 and not a real synthetic.
If the op or anyone else is okay with that, then there is no problem. However, if they are wanting a real synthetic, they need to be aware that some oils are not real syns. when they say they are.
Does this mean that a grp.3 oil is bad? NO and I never said they were. It just means that some oils that say syn. may not be and people need to be aware of this fact and to be aware of the cost they may be paying for what they "thought" was an actual synthetic compared to an actual one.
Is $20.00 for a grp.3 a good price compared to $25.00 for a real syn.?
That is what the op and others have to decide but they cant make a real informed decision if they don't know that the oil they are getting may not be a real syn.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
You can look at UOA's done by 2010 FX4, his results have shown that conv. does as well as syn.
2010 FX4
And I assume through all your valuable experience and extensive testing you can find a difference in the performance of these fake vs real synthetics.
Or I'm sure you've chosen to ignore that these fake syns perform the same or better when compared to the real ones and have compared the cost in comparison to the performance.
I not ONCE promoted syns. It seems that some here are all too quick to take things wrong and make comments that ad nothing to the conversation.
I have been on the board for some time and learned quite a bit. I may not have posted as much as some but that in no way means that my knowledge is any less that many here.
The op was asking about syn. oils and I only stated that some oils labeled as syn. can be grp.3 and not a real synthetic.
If the op or anyone else is okay with that, then there is no problem. However, if they are wanting a real synthetic, they need to be aware that some oils are not real syns. when they say they are.
Does this mean that a grp.3 oil is bad? NO and I never said they were. It just means that some oils that say syn. may not be and people need to be aware of this fact and to be aware of the cost they may be paying for what they "thought" was an actual synthetic compared to an actual one.
Is $20.00 for a grp.3 a good price compared to $25.00 for a real syn.?
That is what the op and others have to decide but they cant make a real informed decision if they don't know that the oil they are getting may not be a real syn.
Children, children...this is NOT THAT important. I don't like what this board has become.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
An oil that says "synthetic" may not be an actual synthetic, it may be a grp.3 oil which is a severely treated/hydro-treated mineral oil.
A grp.3 oil can be a very good oil but it is not a real syn.
You also have to consider that conventional oils are quite good now and syn. oils are not usually needed in about 97% of the cars on the road.
You can look at UOA's done by 2010 FX4, his results have shown that conv. does as well as syn.
2010 FX4
And I assume through all your valuable experience and extensive testing you can find a difference in the performance of these fake vs real synthetics.
Or I'm sure you've chosen to ignore that these fake syns perform the same or better when compared to the real ones and have compared the cost in comparison to the performance.
I not ONCE promoted syns. It seems that some here are all too quick to take things wrong and make comments that ad nothing to the conversation.
I have been on the board for some time and learned quite a bit. I may not have posted as much as some but that in no way means that my knowledge is any less that many here.
The op was asking about syn. oils and I only stated that some oils labeled as syn. can be grp.3 and not a real synthetic.
If the op or anyone else is okay with that, then there is no problem. However, if they are wanting a real synthetic, they need to be aware that some oils are not real syns. when they say they are.
Does this mean that a grp.3 oil is bad? NO and I never said they were. It just means that some oils that say syn. may not be and people need to be aware of this fact and to be aware of the cost they may be paying for what they "thought" was an actual synthetic compared to an actual one.
Is $20.00 for a grp.3 a good price compared to $25.00 for a real syn.?
That is what the op and others have to decide but they cant make a real informed decision if they don't know that the oil they are getting may not be a real syn.
Children, children...this is NOT THAT important. I don't like what this board has become.
Originally Posted By: OMCWankel
The most important thing I have learned in my years on this board is that you must match the application with the lubricant.
My lowest hp/L machine (1997 Miata) gets group 3 or 4 lubricant due to known issues with poor cooling system design and hot spots in the motor.
My highest hp/L machine (1986 GSXR 750) gets group 2+ lubricant due to high fuel dilution and short OCI.
Both solutions give me low wear and are appropriate. Application driven - backed up with analysis!
"match the lubricant to the application." Right. poster a few days ago described his experience as a mechanic for a police department that UOA and used dino (this was in the 80's) Said they still had a significant number of engines grenade and that they found it better to switch to syn and dispense with the UOAs. He was pretty convincing, too.
It seems to me there is a real possibility that syn would have a significant advantage in extreme conditions, and not just very warm or very cold weather. A police cruiser doing speed monitoring on the highway all day long has quite a few full throttle accelerations I can see how syn might be a real advantage, especially in those days.
If I were changing myself, based on what I learned here, I would probably get whatever syn Wal-Mart had on sale, with a good filter and run it to at least a non-absurd OCI--say 7K miles. For me, its more efficient to get the el cheapo Motorcraft changes at Ford, and get them to rotate my tires while they are at it.
The most important thing I have learned in my years on this board is that you must match the application with the lubricant.
My lowest hp/L machine (1997 Miata) gets group 3 or 4 lubricant due to known issues with poor cooling system design and hot spots in the motor.
My highest hp/L machine (1986 GSXR 750) gets group 2+ lubricant due to high fuel dilution and short OCI.
Both solutions give me low wear and are appropriate. Application driven - backed up with analysis!
"match the lubricant to the application." Right. poster a few days ago described his experience as a mechanic for a police department that UOA and used dino (this was in the 80's) Said they still had a significant number of engines grenade and that they found it better to switch to syn and dispense with the UOAs. He was pretty convincing, too.
It seems to me there is a real possibility that syn would have a significant advantage in extreme conditions, and not just very warm or very cold weather. A police cruiser doing speed monitoring on the highway all day long has quite a few full throttle accelerations I can see how syn might be a real advantage, especially in those days.
If I were changing myself, based on what I learned here, I would probably get whatever syn Wal-Mart had on sale, with a good filter and run it to at least a non-absurd OCI--say 7K miles. For me, its more efficient to get the el cheapo Motorcraft changes at Ford, and get them to rotate my tires while they are at it.
Lets see here, Motorcraft semi syn is considered by many here to be a fine oil and it is. It's also priced many times right in with dino oils so passing it up would be crazy when the price is right.
Ford claims they used it in the Hero Ecoboost engine when it endured Fords' famous durability tests so that means even if you are running a turbo car it would probably be OK.
Also, IIRC Bill in Utah ran a series of oils, both conventional and synthetic in his Toyota Corolla and the UOAs showed little to no difference between the two. He may chime in here on his experience and he has the UOAs to back it up.
Now as for me, I use Pennzoil Ultra in all three cars I have: a 2013 Mazdaspeed 3, a 2013 Ford Explorer with the 3.5 NA engine and a 2011 F150 FX4 with the EB engine. I use it because I like SOPUS products.
Lastly, the oil filter one uses has a lot to do with how successful an oil may be an a particular application -a lousy oil filter can make a perfectly good oil look bad.
I just had to jump in.....I must be mad....
Ford claims they used it in the Hero Ecoboost engine when it endured Fords' famous durability tests so that means even if you are running a turbo car it would probably be OK.
Also, IIRC Bill in Utah ran a series of oils, both conventional and synthetic in his Toyota Corolla and the UOAs showed little to no difference between the two. He may chime in here on his experience and he has the UOAs to back it up.
Now as for me, I use Pennzoil Ultra in all three cars I have: a 2013 Mazdaspeed 3, a 2013 Ford Explorer with the 3.5 NA engine and a 2011 F150 FX4 with the EB engine. I use it because I like SOPUS products.
Lastly, the oil filter one uses has a lot to do with how successful an oil may be an a particular application -a lousy oil filter can make a perfectly good oil look bad.
I just had to jump in.....I must be mad....
Why spend more when you don't need to is my thoughts. My probe hits the 1 year mark before 5k miles so it would be a waste to run a synthetic. My truck however sees 7-9k a year, is what i drive in the winter, and gets 1/y changes with 0w20. Makes perfect sense there.
Comes down to individual use and needs. Dino will let your engine last far longer than you probably want to own the car at the end of the day.
Comes down to individual use and needs. Dino will let your engine last far longer than you probably want to own the car at the end of the day.
I have to grin when I read about the cost equation of using conventional over synthetics. I've seen some that will quibble over the cost of 5 or 6 quarts of oil, but have no problem spending gobs of money on stuff for that same vehicle that will do nothing more than boost their ego. I do not see it as extensively here, but other forums are loaded with threads quibbling over price of an oil, while the next thread folks are adding cat back exhausts, cold air intakes, raising the vehicle 5 inches and throwing on tires that were better meant for a class 8 commercial truck. We are talking about a few quarts here, guys, not several drums a year like a fleet. So what if someone opts to use a synthetic in their auto. Sure won't hurt. Could help in some situations. Maybe they won't realize the maximum potential of a full synthetic because of not extending drains, they do not have a high performance engine, or operate their vehicle at the South Pole. Still doesn't make using a full synthetic a bad choice. We are not talking about having to take out a second mortgage to do an oil change yet. And it gets even better when folks will debate what is a "true" synthetic and what isn't. The results out in the real world are hardly distinguishable, since the add pack is as important as the base oil, but the price off the shelf is.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I have to grin when I read about the cost equation of using conventional over synthetics. I've seen some that will quibble over the cost of 5 or 6 quarts of oil, but have no problem spending gobs of money on stuff for that same vehicle that will do nothing more than boost their ego. I do not see it as extensively here, but other forums are loaded with threads quibbling over price of an oil, while the next thread folks are adding cat back exhausts, cold air intakes, raising the vehicle 5 inches and throwing on tires that were better meant for a class 8 commercial truck...
I have seen somewhat the opposite in the past, though I will confess to not having visited an automotive forum besides this one for many years. On many enthusiast boards, the default oil choice is "Mobile 1" (sic), because anyone who doesn't use Mobil 1 obviously doesn't love their car as much as they do. It's almost a club membership card; if cost is *any* object in terms of an oil or filter, you obviously don't care for your car like "we" do in this "club".
I've seen so many examples of "Mobile 1 oil and filter" being changed every 3,000 miles for "maximum protection". Many years ago, kids would advertise their car as having "full synthetics", a badge of identification that you had a real "car guy" on your hands there...
I have to grin when I read about the cost equation of using conventional over synthetics. I've seen some that will quibble over the cost of 5 or 6 quarts of oil, but have no problem spending gobs of money on stuff for that same vehicle that will do nothing more than boost their ego. I do not see it as extensively here, but other forums are loaded with threads quibbling over price of an oil, while the next thread folks are adding cat back exhausts, cold air intakes, raising the vehicle 5 inches and throwing on tires that were better meant for a class 8 commercial truck...
I have seen somewhat the opposite in the past, though I will confess to not having visited an automotive forum besides this one for many years. On many enthusiast boards, the default oil choice is "Mobile 1" (sic), because anyone who doesn't use Mobil 1 obviously doesn't love their car as much as they do. It's almost a club membership card; if cost is *any* object in terms of an oil or filter, you obviously don't care for your car like "we" do in this "club".
I've seen so many examples of "Mobile 1 oil and filter" being changed every 3,000 miles for "maximum protection". Many years ago, kids would advertise their car as having "full synthetics", a badge of identification that you had a real "car guy" on your hands there...
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