Why do oils lose spec approvals?

[FlyingTexan]

Why do oils lose spec approval? For instance Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 use to have Ferrari approval but now doesn’t. Is it simply marketing/licensing? I’m running QuakerState Euro 5w40 which I believe is the same oil. It doesn’t have Ferrari approval. Why not? I’ve been told it’s the same exact oil in a different bottle.

Btw I ordered three AMSOIL lab kits and sent one off yesterday for the the QuakerState 5w40 strait from the jug. I’ll do another at 5k and 7.5k. But will be interested in the results.

 

[wpod]

What kind of Ferrari do you have?

 

[fantastic]

They must not be confident it meets that specification or goes too far outside of those requirements. Especially knowing they don't need to pay for the license approval & can simply self warranty by meeting those specs. Not saying good or bad but it's good to question & figure out why something disappeared.

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

OEM Engine Builder Approvals cost money. Sometimes the lubricant manufacturer knows they can't meet the requirement for a certain approval, so they're not going to waste money and then not get the approval. Other times they simply don't want to bother with it. For example, Red Line Oil and HPL make very high quality motor oils, but neither carries any OEM approvals.

Since Quaker State Euro 5W-40 is essentially Shell Helix Ultra SP 5W-40, and since most Ferraris call for ACEA A3/B4 5W-40 for street use, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm more curious what model Ferrari you have, and if can post some pictures. Thank you.

 

[cptbarkey]

Once I delved a few hours into the PDF for API licensing. Its available publicly on their webiste.

I learned that you must pay API for every gallon above 1 million gallons that you sell, this is after the $$$$$ you pay for the initial licensing. I assume that if you stop paying your dues to API, you cant put the official symbol on your bottle anymore is my inference. I also believe they do not offer historical licensing but I could be wrong there (ie. obtaining a license for SM, or SL).

 

[kschachn]

Sorry duplicate post.

 

[FlyingTexan]

OEM Engine Builder Approvals cost money. Sometimes the lubricant manufacturer knows they can't meet the requirement for a certain approval, so they're not going to waste money and then not get the approval. Other times they simply don't want to bother with it. For example, Red Line Oil and HPL make very high quality motor oils, but neither carries any OEM approvals.

Since Quaker State Euro 5W-40 is essentially Shell Helix Ultra SP 5W-40, and since most Ferraris call for ACEA A3/B4 5W-40 for street use, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm more curious what model Ferrari you have, and if can post some pictures. Thank you.

I don’t have a Ferrari lol just using it as a stringent example

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

I don’t have a Ferrari lol just using it as a stringent example

Ferrari is not a stringent example. They just want you to use the highest performing ACEA A3/B4 oil, preferably Shell Helix Ultra, since they have a contract with Shell.

 

[kschachn]

Somebody may disagree but there is little evidence to suggest that the Ferrari “approval” is little more than a marketing agreement. As that changes so does the… approval. Some of this also applies to other approvals from other manufacturers, at least in terms of a blender’s willingness or enthusiasm to obtain those approvals.

 

[kschachn]

Once I delved a few hours into the PDF for API licensing. Its available publicly on their webiste.

I learned that you must pay API for every gallon above 1 million gallons that you sell, this is after the $$$$$ you pay for the initial licensing. I assume that if you stop paying your dues to API, you cant put the official symbol on your bottle anymore is my inference. I also believe they do not offer historical licensing but I could be wrong there (ie. obtaining a license for SM, or SL).

Little different than any manufacturer approval or a dexos license.

 

[FlyingTexan]

For instance at WM right now there’s M1. Same oil and the bottle has LL01 cert while the box doesn’t. So it’s just licensing fees?

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

So it’s just licensing fees?

No. A license is different from an OEM approval.

 

[kschachn]

For instance at WM right now there’s M1. Same oil and the bottle has LL01 cert while the box doesn’t. So it’s just licensing fees?


View attachment 200427

View attachment 200425

No. One is a newer container.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Why do oils lose spec approval? For instance Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 use to have Ferrari approval but now doesn’t. Is it simply marketing/licensing? I’m running QuakerState Euro 5w40 which I believe is the same oil. It doesn’t have Ferrari approval. Why not? I’ve been told it’s the same exact oil in a different bottle.

Btw I ordered three AMSOIL lab kits and sent one off yesterday for the the QuakerState 5w40 strait from the jug. I’ll do another at 5k and 7.5k. But will be interested in the results.

Usually the automaker will revise the requirements of their approvals. BMW, MB, VW approvals have undergone numerous revisions over the years. Or the approval has expired and the blender has no business reason to renew it.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

For instance at WM right now there’s M1. Same oil and the bottle has LL01 cert while the box doesn’t. So it’s just licensing fees?


View attachment 200427

View attachment 200425

For starters you're looking at two different formulations. Box SN vs Bottle SN+/SP

 

[FlyingTexan]

For starters you're looking at two different formulations. Box SN vs Bottle SN+/SP

How do you figure? They’re both 0w40 European formula. I feel you’re making my point for me.

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

How do you figure? They’re both 0w40 European formula. I feel you’re making my point for me.

SN can't protect an engine against LSPI, while SP can. Mobil never made an SN Plus 0W-40.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

How do you figure? They’re both 0w40 European formula. I feel you’re making my point for me.

Well I read the API approvals on each. M1 0w40 lost LL01 around 2018 (19) and regained it with the latest revision 2022 (23). It was at this time when everyone was moving to SP with more Mg and less Ca. I suspect the box is old stock because the packaging isn't that popular. Just look at the manufacturing dates.

Note Lubrizol has an interactive chart listening approvals and their various revisions.

 

[chris719]

If the bottle says 6748 printed lightly on it somewhere it's the new SP formula regardless of the labels.

 

[edyvw]

There is no Ferrari approval. Ferrari uses Shell products bcs. R&D relationship, marketing, sponsorship etc.

Approvals don’t cost a lot if money. Development of oil does. Most European approvals are designed to help customers choose the right oil.

Licensing is different from approval.

Approvals are regularly updated. BMW had an update for LL01 and LL04 in 2018 and again in 2022. So, updating approvals is nothing new. Sometimes, blenders choose not to seek approval as it would require changing the oil composition. Mobil1, when it revised its lineup in 2015, didn’t seek BMW LL01 and LL04 approvals as those approvals were too stringent oxidation-wise for M1 to meet. It would require M1 to change the formulation to get it, which, obviously, they didn’t want. With the new XOM lineup and base stock switch, they did seek BMW approvals again.