I keep reading on break in topics ... "I'm going to use XYZ conventional oil until the car breaks in then I'm switching to M1PPYZ synthetic." I've done this myself in the past but I realize I have no idea why. What's fact, fiction and urban legend in all this?
Why conventional oil for break in?
- Thread starter Cicero
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And how do you explain when a vehicle comes factory with Synthetic oil. unless they run the motor on dino first or something.
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Costs less and if the new rebuilt engine grenades it won't be the botique syn oil companies fault.
Interesting. Anyone know what the majority of manufacturers use as their factory oil?
since my cars are both turbo i only run the break in oil about 500 miles, so why use a high price oil for only 500 miles. i see that royal purple has a break in oil. dont know the cost but probably about 9 bucks a qt. although this is for your rebuild and not a new car. the rp might have some additives not in normal conv or syn oil.
Some Possibilities-
*Some friction necessary to reduce asperites for break in
*Cheaper oil that can be dumped in a short interval
*Piston rings especially need a little more friction to break in
BUT, as Mr Lexus said, many car come with factory fill syn or syn blend and the engines do fine. This is likely one of those things that was once applicable for the time period and state-of-technology. Maybe it's no longer applicable but continues to hand on.
*Some friction necessary to reduce asperites for break in
*Cheaper oil that can be dumped in a short interval
*Piston rings especially need a little more friction to break in
BUT, as Mr Lexus said, many car come with factory fill syn or syn blend and the engines do fine. This is likely one of those things that was once applicable for the time period and state-of-technology. Maybe it's no longer applicable but continues to hand on.
Originally Posted By: Cicero
I keep reading on break in topics ... "I'm going to use XYZ conventional oil until the car breaks in then I'm switching to M1PPYZ synthetic." I've done this myself in the past but I realize I have no idea why. What's fact, fiction and urban legend in all this?
Not a urban legend to many people. Look at a bottle of Redline 20w50 it says for use after 3000 miles right on the bottle. Many manufacturers believe that dino oils allow more "initial wear" when an engine breaks in and some synthetics actually prolong break in.
This is probably true with GroupV synthetics. Not sure about GroupIV BUT I have used GrpIII synthetics to break in motorcycle engines after 100 miles of dino FF and they work great. SO I would not use a GrpIV or GRPV oil until at least 3000 miles IMO.
I keep reading on break in topics ... "I'm going to use XYZ conventional oil until the car breaks in then I'm switching to M1PPYZ synthetic." I've done this myself in the past but I realize I have no idea why. What's fact, fiction and urban legend in all this?
Not a urban legend to many people. Look at a bottle of Redline 20w50 it says for use after 3000 miles right on the bottle. Many manufacturers believe that dino oils allow more "initial wear" when an engine breaks in and some synthetics actually prolong break in.
This is probably true with GroupV synthetics. Not sure about GroupIV BUT I have used GrpIII synthetics to break in motorcycle engines after 100 miles of dino FF and they work great. SO I would not use a GrpIV or GRPV oil until at least 3000 miles IMO.
Originally Posted By: hardcore302
Interesting. Anyone know what the majority of manufacturers use as their factory oil?
My guess would be Mobil bulk dino. I always dump FF at 1000 and refill with Mobilclean 5000 for the first 5000 miles run. Then switch to synthetic. On gearboxes/diffs, I'll run FF 500-1000 then change to dino for another 3-4000 then go synthetic.
Interesting. Anyone know what the majority of manufacturers use as their factory oil?
My guess would be Mobil bulk dino. I always dump FF at 1000 and refill with Mobilclean 5000 for the first 5000 miles run. Then switch to synthetic. On gearboxes/diffs, I'll run FF 500-1000 then change to dino for another 3-4000 then go synthetic.
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Originally Posted By: lexus114
And how do you explain when a vehicle comes factory with Synthetic oil. unless they run the motor on dino first or something.
1. "Break-In" does what it says. Teensy bits of moving parts break off until they are perfectly mated to each other (re: seating piston rings to cylinder bores)
2. Many modern engines are so near perfect in fit and finish that a mid-to-long OCI with any oil can be expected to accomplish all needed break-in with normal driving.
K
And how do you explain when a vehicle comes factory with Synthetic oil. unless they run the motor on dino first or something.
1. "Break-In" does what it says. Teensy bits of moving parts break off until they are perfectly mated to each other (re: seating piston rings to cylinder bores)
2. Many modern engines are so near perfect in fit and finish that a mid-to-long OCI with any oil can be expected to accomplish all needed break-in with normal driving.
K
Originally Posted By: Kaboomba
2. Many modern engines are so near perfect in fit and finish
K
Right.... interested in some Arizona swampland?
Break-in has been pretty much a non-event for the past 40 years as far as average cars and average drivers go. But people who want to absolutely maximize the life of their engine still are a little over-protective of those first thousand miles- never maintaining a constant speed, a couple of oil changes within a few hundred miles to get rid of assembly lubes and casting debris, etc.
2. Many modern engines are so near perfect in fit and finish
K
Right.... interested in some Arizona swampland?
Break-in has been pretty much a non-event for the past 40 years as far as average cars and average drivers go. But people who want to absolutely maximize the life of their engine still are a little over-protective of those first thousand miles- never maintaining a constant speed, a couple of oil changes within a few hundred miles to get rid of assembly lubes and casting debris, etc.
Quote:
Q: Can I break-in my engine on Red Line motor oil?
For peformance engines, we recommend using conventional 10w30 motor oil to ensure proper piston ring seating. We recommend using this oil in combonation with our Engine Oil Break In Additive, which features the antiwear chemicals necessary to protect valve train components like camshafts, rollers, and tappets. Though most conventional oils are missing the important antiwear components that you find in Red Line's synthetic motor oils, the conventional oil is not as slick as Red Line and will allow the piston rings to seat more quickly. If you allow 1500 to 2000 miles in a street engine or 20 to 30 minutes on the dyno at low rpm, the rings will have had sufficient time to seat and the high initial break-in wear will have occurred. For new road cars, always follow the manufacturer recommendations and initial oil change recommendations for break-in.
from the RL FAQ. Note the last line.
I guess RL is slicker than M1 8)
Q: Can I break-in my engine on Red Line motor oil?
For peformance engines, we recommend using conventional 10w30 motor oil to ensure proper piston ring seating. We recommend using this oil in combonation with our Engine Oil Break In Additive, which features the antiwear chemicals necessary to protect valve train components like camshafts, rollers, and tappets. Though most conventional oils are missing the important antiwear components that you find in Red Line's synthetic motor oils, the conventional oil is not as slick as Red Line and will allow the piston rings to seat more quickly. If you allow 1500 to 2000 miles in a street engine or 20 to 30 minutes on the dyno at low rpm, the rings will have had sufficient time to seat and the high initial break-in wear will have occurred. For new road cars, always follow the manufacturer recommendations and initial oil change recommendations for break-in.
from the RL FAQ. Note the last line.
I guess RL is slicker than M1 8)
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John Deere still promotes the break-in myth for their ag. engines:
http://www.frontierpower.com/service/breakinoil.htm
"High-quality premium engine oils should not be used as a break-in oil. The superior anti-wear characteristics of premium oils will inhibit the proper matching of components which could result in excessive oil consumption."
http://www.frontierpower.com/service/breakinoil.htm
"High-quality premium engine oils should not be used as a break-in oil. The superior anti-wear characteristics of premium oils will inhibit the proper matching of components which could result in excessive oil consumption."
Originally Posted By: hardcore302
Interesting. Anyone know what the majority of manufacturers use as their factory oil?
Very little.
Single digits easy.
Bill
Interesting. Anyone know what the majority of manufacturers use as their factory oil?
Very little.
Single digits easy.
Bill
I was always told that people should use conventional to allow rings to seat properly and the general break in of parts to match up better. The rumor was that synthetic oil was too slick to allow these things to happen.
That's what I was told, though I know you can use synthetic at any point in time. As was pointed out there are quite a few cars that come with synthetic as their FF oil.
But despite knowing this, I still use conventional at first. Same as I know you can keep the FF oil in there until the first oil change, but I still change it out after about 1k miles.
I was once told a story for the bases of the "don't break a car in with synthetic oil", as it was told to me was that back in the day synthetic oil cost much more then conventional oil, but people who felt they knew what was better for their new car would put synthetic oil in there the first opportunity they got. Then b/c they knew enough to put in synthetic (and b/c of the hit to their wallets), they would constantly be checking their oil to make sure everything was good. However, engines weren't manufactured as finely as they are today, and all vehicles at the time would burn oil until the engine got broken in. The average person wouldn't notice this b/c they used conventional and didn't pay as much attention to their oil, but those who felt they were smart and immediately used synthetic kept a close eye on it and would see that oil was burning (and taking their $$$ with it). Thus the theory was that you couldn't use synthetic until you've broken in the engine with conventional b/c that allowed everything to break in so that you wouldn't burn away your oil or money.
Now I make no claims to know if that story even has the slightest bit of truth to it or not. That was simply how it was told to me by someone MUCH more knowledgeable about car maintenance and history then I'll ever be, however that does not mean he's not mistaken on the story. I'm simply passing along the story as it was told to me so that you can enjoy it too, if you don't believe it or didn't enjoy it, oh well. But don't start some flame war on this thread b/c of it (I know this forum is better then that, but unfortunately most of the internet isn't)
That's what I was told, though I know you can use synthetic at any point in time. As was pointed out there are quite a few cars that come with synthetic as their FF oil.
But despite knowing this, I still use conventional at first. Same as I know you can keep the FF oil in there until the first oil change, but I still change it out after about 1k miles.
I was once told a story for the bases of the "don't break a car in with synthetic oil", as it was told to me was that back in the day synthetic oil cost much more then conventional oil, but people who felt they knew what was better for their new car would put synthetic oil in there the first opportunity they got. Then b/c they knew enough to put in synthetic (and b/c of the hit to their wallets), they would constantly be checking their oil to make sure everything was good. However, engines weren't manufactured as finely as they are today, and all vehicles at the time would burn oil until the engine got broken in. The average person wouldn't notice this b/c they used conventional and didn't pay as much attention to their oil, but those who felt they were smart and immediately used synthetic kept a close eye on it and would see that oil was burning (and taking their $$$ with it). Thus the theory was that you couldn't use synthetic until you've broken in the engine with conventional b/c that allowed everything to break in so that you wouldn't burn away your oil or money.
Now I make no claims to know if that story even has the slightest bit of truth to it or not. That was simply how it was told to me by someone MUCH more knowledgeable about car maintenance and history then I'll ever be, however that does not mean he's not mistaken on the story. I'm simply passing along the story as it was told to me so that you can enjoy it too, if you don't believe it or didn't enjoy it, oh well. But don't start some flame war on this thread b/c of it (I know this forum is better then that, but unfortunately most of the internet isn't)
I talked with a tech from VP a few years ago and he recommended conventional oil until the engine broke in. When is it broken in? When it does what? Stop comsuming oil or something? I never figured that out so I just waited until the UOA's seemed stable...
Anyway, isn't this sort of an acknowledgement that conventional oils don't provide better "protection" than synthetics? (I'm using the NISSAN miracle oil in my new G37S for two 3,750 OCI's, synthetic after @ 9K. )
Also, my boss said his Camero SS (vette engine?) must use M1 or his warranty is void. That's what he said...but I claim ignorance on that topic. I don't know.
Anyway, isn't this sort of an acknowledgement that conventional oils don't provide better "protection" than synthetics? (I'm using the NISSAN miracle oil in my new G37S for two 3,750 OCI's, synthetic after @ 9K. )
Also, my boss said his Camero SS (vette engine?) must use M1 or his warranty is void. That's what he said...but I claim ignorance on that topic. I don't know.
Originally Posted By: Cicero
Also, my boss said his Camero SS (vette engine?) must use M1 or his warranty is void. That's what he said...but I claim ignorance on that topic. I don't know.
Here we go again... This is not correct. M1 is recommended but you will not find it anywhere in the Owners Manual that M1, or any other specific brand name, is mandatory.
Also, my boss said his Camero SS (vette engine?) must use M1 or his warranty is void. That's what he said...but I claim ignorance on that topic. I don't know.
Here we go again... This is not correct. M1 is recommended but you will not find it anywhere in the Owners Manual that M1, or any other specific brand name, is mandatory.
I'm sorry...is that a question or an incomplete sentence?
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