Why can't everyone use 0w-xx?

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
The same is true for High Temps! You dont see people hunting down the 0W-50 Eneos for when they live in Death Vallex, AZ! That oil is likely a 40wt. at Normal Temp anyway, not a 50..

Man, you do realize that Pennzoil Platinum 5w50 and Castrol Syntec 5w50 is thinner than Eneos 0w50 at 100 degrees C? Why don't you go to the website and check out the specs before accusing products of not meeting API spec?

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: tuckman
In most applications 0w oils would perform very well.

The problem is in the myths about 0w oils or "Its thicker so it has to be better" mentality. I have been told 0w oils are voodoo to only be used in Siberia or the arctic and should be changed out after the ambient temps are above freezing so you don't damage your engine. Even where I live I encounter it almost every time I tell somebody I am running 0w30 year round in my diesel Excursion. I get lots of people telling me I am going to crater that powerstroke if I don't run 15w40!

I will have my UOA proof for them soon enough!


One UOA most certainly isn't proof that 0W30 is fine in your diesel.
UOA's can be useful tools to tell you how the oil is holding up and give you some idea on how the engine is doing, but I wouldn't consider it concrete fact.

I remember BuickGN having a good UOA with half a rod sitting in his oil pan. Something to keep in mind during your testing.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: tpattgeek
Excuse my ignorance, but if a 0w oil is thicker at ambient temp. than any other oil's thickness at operating temp., why do people think 5w and 0w are "too thin" when they're actually still much thicker than the oil when it's at operating temp in the same vehicle? Hopefully someone can explain this to me.


Originally Posted By: rogan
afraid of VII

Originally Posted By: J. A. Rizzo
higher volatility is a good reason not to use 0W-xx over 5W-xx or 10W-xx oils.

5w and 0w oils are made with lighter base oils than their 10w and 15w counterparts. This requires more VIIs, which aren't oil. VII quality has improved, but they still could cause sludging problems I imagine. Volatility is another area that the heavier 10w- or 15w- oil has an advantage IF low temperature is not an issue. And if an application requires a high HTHS, the 10w- or 15w- heavier base oil probably has an advantage as well.

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: flatlandtacoma
5w and 0w oils are made with lighter base oils than their 10w and 15w counterparts. This requires more VIIs, which aren't oil. VII quality has improved, but they still could cause sludging problems I imagine. Volatility is another area that the heavier 10w- or 15w- oil has an advantage IF low temperature is not an issue. And if an application requires a high HTHS, the 10w- or 15w- heavier base oil probably has an advantage as well.

This would be true of dino oils but this does not necessarily apply to synthetic oils that are engineered to have high VI without the use of VIIs. Until you know for sure that a synthetic uses VIIs or have a good reason to believe so (uses Group III basestocks) you're no better than people who make snap judgments about an oil by looking at the API rating and the API rating only

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: sangyup81
This would be true of dino oils but this does not necessarily apply to synthetic oils that are engineered to have high VI without the use of VIIs.


Please list all of the 0w30, 5w30, 0w40, 5w40, 0w50, and 5w50 oils that don't contain VIIs. Thanks.

Originally Posted By: sangyup81
you're no better than people who make snap judgments about an oil by looking at the API rating and the API rating only


edit: I'm no better than anyone else, I never said I was. The OP asked a question, and I tried to answer it. He was questioning why a 0w30 wasn't superior to a 10w30 in every way and every application. I tried to list some reasons for him. Thanks again, have a nice day.

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: flatlandtacoma
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
This would be true of dino oils but this does not necessarily apply to synthetic oils that are engineered to have high VI without the use of VIIs.


Please list all of the 0w30, 5w30, 0w40, 5w40, 0w50, and 5w50 oils that don't contain VIIs. Thanks.

Originally Posted By: sangyup81
you're no better than people who make snap judgments about an oil by looking at the API rating and the API rating only


edit: I'm no better than anyone else, I never said I was. The OP asked a question, and I tried to answer it. He was questioning why a 0w30 wasn't superior to a 10w30 in every way and every application. I tried to list some reasons for him. Thanks again, have a nice day.




Here we go. We're talking about the theory that all oils with a large spread has VIIs to a level that causes it to shear. VIIs are NOT the only way to get a large viscosity spread. There's a reason why people pay $12+ a quart for oils like Eneos, Red Line, and RLI in applications that normally shear oils. Oils that don't contain Group III and lower basestocks play by different rules when it comes to VIIs.

If you're going to ask me to list oils without VIIs, then please list some oils that tell you how much they use in VIIs. Should we just assume all oils use VIIs?

Let me ask you something we can actually determine. Which oil has the higher VI?

Eneos 0w50 or Eneos 0w20?

 

[Audi Junkie]

It's not a matter of the quantity of the VIIs, rather it's the quality.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: sangyup81

VIIs are NOT the only way to get a large viscosity spread. There's a reason why people pay $12+ a quart for oils like Eneos, Red Line, and RLI in applications that normally shear oils. Oils that don't contain Group III and lower basestocks play by different rules when it comes to VIIs.

If you're going to ask me to list oils without VIIs, then please list some oils that tell you how much they use in VIIs. Should we just assume all oils use VIIs?

Let me ask you something we can actually determine. Which oil has the higher VI?

Eneos 0w50 or Eneos 0w20?


ENEOS are a GP III based oils unlike RL and RLI.

The highest VI's you'll see without the use of VII's is in the high 160's and they are all GP IV & V based oils.
Some eg's; RL 0W-20 (VI 166), Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W-20 (VI 160)and RL 5w30 (VI 162).

ENEOS 0W-20 IIRC has a VI of 200 and their 0W-50 a VI of 195.
The ENEOS 0W-20 I'm familiar with and it shears almost 10% immediately in use but then stabilizes. This is not a problem per se. After all, the Nippon Oil (ENEOS) made 0W-20 was the original Toyota brand oil supplier.

 

[hooligan24]

Quote:
Are there those that believe Ambient Temp does not make a difference? For example, 110 degree steamy sticky sauna-like Miami in July, maybe hotter. Idling in traffic then drive for 40 minutes to beach. Thick Oil there? The cars that FF 5W-20 do fine... ?



why does ambiant temperature need a change for viscosity if oil temperatures stay the same? my operating oil temps stay the same rather it be 10 degrees or 105 degrees outside. I guess not all stock cooling systems are the same. So, I would assume for my application I could pick one 0wXX and use it year round no matter what climate I am in?

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: sangyup81

VIIs are NOT the only way to get a large viscosity spread. There's a reason why people pay $12+ a quart for oils like Eneos, Red Line, and RLI in applications that normally shear oils. Oils that don't contain Group III and lower basestocks play by different rules when it comes to VIIs.

If you're going to ask me to list oils without VIIs, then please list some oils that tell you how much they use in VIIs. Should we just assume all oils use VIIs?

Let me ask you something we can actually determine. Which oil has the higher VI?

Eneos 0w50 or Eneos 0w20?


ENEOS are a GP III based oils unlike RL and RLI.

The highest VI's you'll see without the use of VII's is in the high 160's and they are all GP IV & V based oils.
Some eg's; RL 0W-20 (VI 166), Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W-20 (VI 160)and RL 5w30 (VI 162).

ENEOS 0W-20 IIRC has a VI of 200 and their 0W-50 a VI of 195.
The ENEOS 0W-20 I'm familiar with and it shears almost 10% immediately in use but then stabilizes. This is not a problem per se. After all, the Nippon Oil (ENEOS) made 0W-20 was the original Toyota brand oil supplier.

We must be reading different things then. From what I've seen, Eneos 0w50 is almost all PAO and Esters. I can't really speak for the other grades though and I'm with you that Toyota 0w20 is not Group IV and Group V only.

And yup, you answered it. Eneos 0w20 has a higher VI than Eneos 0w50. I just put that out there to demonstrate that you can't just simply subtract the winter rating from the hot rating to determine how shear prone an oil must be. Oil just isn't linear in its properties like that.....

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: hooligan24
Quote:
Are there those that believe Ambient Temp does not make a difference? For example, 110 degree steamy sticky sauna-like Miami in July, maybe hotter. Idling in traffic then drive for 40 minutes to beach. Thick Oil there? The cars that FF 5W-20 do fine... ?



why does ambiant temperature need a change for viscosity if oil temperatures stay the same? my operating oil temps stay the same rather it be 10 degrees or 105 degrees outside. I guess not all stock cooling systems are the same. So, I would assume for my application I could pick one 0wXX and use it year round no matter what climate I am in?

Newer cars do a little better with engine oil temps than older cars. Still, there was a time when going by the manufacturer recommendations wasn't safe enough and lead to engine problems. I'm sure the guys that went through that time period have learned to play it safe because of the combined quality issues of engines and conventional engine oils of the time.

For me, higher ambient temps means that I can get away with a higher grade oil. If I was ever curious about Rotella T5 10w30 or German Castrol, higher ambient temps mean that oil doesn't get anywhere near as thick as a lower grade oil in winter temps.

 

[tuckman]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock


One UOA most certainly isn't proof that 0W30 is fine in your diesel.
UOA's can be useful tools to tell you how the oil is holding up and give you some idea on how the engine is doing, but I wouldn't consider it concrete fact.

I remember BuickGN having a good UOA with half a rod sitting in his oil pan. Something to keep in mind during your testing.


I kept it short to stay on the OP's topic and not go off on my own. I will now...
I am going to be running only 0w30 and pulling UOA's for the next year (or more). The Excursion will see -50C to +35C pulling horse trailer, travel trailer and running empty. It will travel in the prairies to the west coast (thru the mountains while towing) and it will see its fair share of idling time also.
So there will be more than 1 UOA! The UOA's will give me the info on how the oil is standing up to the HEUI system. I will have good evidence either supporting or busting my thoughts. Also if 0w30 was not good enough for my 6.0 then why is Ford recommending it along with 10w30 over 15w40?
Any more questions?

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: tuckman
I will have good evidence either supporting or busting my thoughts. Also if 0w30 was not good enough for my 6.0 then why is Ford recommending it along with 10w30 over 15w40?
Any more questions?


No need to get smart, friend. I commented on the info you so jubilantly posted.

I never indicated that 0w30 was not good enough for your Powerstroke. I only offered advice that UOA's may not necessarily indicate a mechanical problem.

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: sangyup81
There's a reason why people pay $12+ a quart for oils like Eneos, Red Line, and RLI in applications that normally shear oils.


Out of these three, which would be your choice? And why not include Group IV Royal Purple?

If the Base Oil thing is that good.. That seems to go against what ive read about the base Oil Group not mattering.

 

[fsskier]

For those of us that have winter, the 0Wxx oils are likely the best option available. 19f this morning, not even Thanksgiving yet....possibly our winter mountain skiing vacation will again yield temperatures near -40f at some time or another...

But, for my daughter that lives near Miami I tell her to use the 5w20 that her manual recommends.... a cold start there could be near 80f even in the winter!!!

fsskier

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: fsskier
For those of us that have winter, the 0Wxx oils are likely the best option available. 19f this morning, not even Thanksgiving yet....possibly our winter mountain skiing vacation will again yield temperatures near -40f at some time or another...

But, for my daughter that lives near Miami I tell her to use the 5w20 that her manual recommends.... a cold start there could be near 80f even in the winter!!!

fsskier


Thats -about- where Im at. Im in Jacksonville, and tonight its getting down near 30. Me being from New York, im used to it, it wont get much colder... What IM Stuck on is that what is 0W and 5W oil is better even here, since anyone with "20W-50" in their car is NOT being nice to their car when it is technically 32 degrees, FREEZING out! 20W-50 is "5- degrees and above" heard someone say "40" but i really dont know about that.

This Eneos 0W-50 is looking like it cant be beat. If youre gonna pay for 5W-50 Syntec, pay a little more for this Eneos stuff. Wow.........

Eneos says 25% more Viscosity Range than Mobil 1 on its 0W-50.

Maybe i found an Oil...................... it will start in MAINE AND not shear in MIAMI! WOW!

Aut-RXing w 10W-40 Supertech first, more funky looking oil. 5000 miles double dose, then Rinse phase.. then ENEOS!! Saving, of course, n further issues with that car.

 

[fsskier]

Ow50 sounds impressive.... but why do you want to get up to 50weight oil?? Even over the road trucks, running at or near full throttle, and manufacturer's trying to get 1 million miles before an overhaul.... only go up to 40w oil.

Now, with a lighter throttle, likely cooler oil... 20 or 30 should be enough, not??

Yeah, I do like the marginal gas mileage gains of lighter oil, also!!

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
There's a reason why people pay $12+ a quart for oils like Eneos, Red Line, and RLI in applications that normally shear oils.


Out of these three, which would be your choice? And why not include Group IV Royal Purple?

If the Base Oil thing is that good.. That seems to go against what ive read about the base Oil Group not mattering.

Base oil does matter. It's just not always the most important thing. Group Vs can be made superior to Group IVs especially when it comes to VI and the ability to hold additives in suspension which Group IV base oil is not so great at.

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: fsskier
Ow50 sounds impressive.... but why do you want to get up to 50weight oil?? Even over the road trucks, running at or near full throttle, and manufacturer's trying to get 1 million miles before an overhaul.... only go up to 40w oil.

Now, with a lighter throttle, likely cooler oil... 20 or 30 should be enough, not??

Yeah, I do like the marginal gas mileage gains of lighter oil, also!!

It's marketed to cars with Turbos. I think it was reviewed on a Lancer EVO and compared against 20w50 using a dyno

 

[tuckman]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock


I never indicated that 0w30 was not good enough for your Powerstroke. I only offered advice that UOA's may not necessarily indicate a mechanical problem.



So now you know the whole story.
Also that I want the UOA's to see how the oil is doing more than looking for mechanical failure.