Why aren't diesel hybrids being used?

[OilFilters]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
and the fact that diesels do not like being started and stopped 100 times a trip to and from work.

Ever seen how a UPS driver drives? Full throttle...stop...engine off...throw package...crank engine...full throttle...repeat endlessly.

I don't know what service life they get out of their diesel engines, but I imagine it's good or they wouldn't allow this procedure. It's company policy to drive this way. They are VERY specific about making their drivers drive the way they want them to. They have monitors in the truck watching everything the driver does.

 

[OilFilters]

Originally Posted By: mx5miata
I would like go see a hybrid with propane generator like the city transit bus


Propane generally cost quite a bit more than gasoline per unit of energy in the US. City buses don't use propane, they use CNG, which requires an expensive infrastructure to refill.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
re hard starting, NVH, whatever by people who don't have diesels...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgcHIX5ZZSw
That took several cranks. Very 1981 there. Modern gasoline hybrid engines actually stop and start with one piston at an ideal position and IMMEDIATELY fire up.

Trains have been straight (no battery) diesel-generator-motor electric for quite some time. Lots of torque from zero speed, no gears required. Series hybrid, sans batteries though.
http://www.edisontechcenter.org/Dieseltrains.html
https://youtu.be/b1syD6Nu3kw

10% power conversion losses are about right for a lot of things in a Series (or Series-Parallel) Hybrid. IC engine output shaft to generator output: 10% loss; then generator output to traction motor output another 10% loss... Notice I haven't gone through a battery yet, so maybe 10% losses every time you put power in a battery, and another 10% loss for battery discharge to the motor.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Shannow
re hard starting, NVH, whatever by people who don't have diesels...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgcHIX5ZZSw
That took several cranks. Very 1981 there.


Of course it does...it's a conventional starting system...just like a regular Camry non hybrid, and does NONE of those things like have power motors as starter motors.

set it up like a hybrid and it will start like a hybrid.

 

[PandaBear]

20 years ago our school did some hybrid research in a competition with other schools. Some did Diesel hybrid and ours used gasoline hybrid.

It is doable but it cost more, and you cannot get good emission out of it compare to a gas hybrid. Stop start is not as easy on diesel as well in cold weather. So in the end nobody will want it in the North America market.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: mx5miata
I would like go see a hybrid with propane generator like the city transit bus


Last time I check bus use CNG instead of propane.

 

[OilFilters]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Notice I haven't gone through a battery yet, so maybe 10% losses every time you put power in a battery, and another 10% loss for battery discharge to the motor.


Lithium batteries are nearly 100% efficient. Significantly more efficient when charging than lead acid.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: OilFilters
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Notice I haven't gone through a battery yet, so maybe 10% losses every time you put power in a battery, and another 10% loss for battery discharge to the motor.


Lithium batteries are nearly 100% efficient. Significantly more efficient when charging than lead acid.


Looking at the "giant" tesla battery installed in South Australia, 20% of the MWh go missing in the round trip.

regarding all the commentary about diesels (including 20 years ago), they are not like these any more for automotive applications.



Here's the Duramax 2.8

Here's the ECoboost 4 cylindre.

The modern engines that run on diesel fuel and the modern engines that run on gasoline are getting so close that to claim one is markedly more expensive or problematic is ridiculous.

It's like saying that you can't have a gasoline hybrid and pointing at a Valiant slant six.

 

[Silk]

I always laugh at this one. I've been a mechanic for 48 years now, and apparently I should know very little about Toyota's...but unfortunatly I've had to fix an awful lot of them over the years, as much as every other make out there. People used to ask me what the most reliable car was, they never liked my reply - a 1990's Holden Commodore.

 

[DdDd]

In the US no OEMs offer small mass produced diesels. Therefore no economy of scale.

When diesel is an option it's always $3k more. Better build and tons more emissions tech. Cheepie Euro diesel didn't pass emissions here. Just ask VW! They neglected to install ammonia cats.

Regular is $3/gal. Diesel is $3.70 really a diesel hybrid is an answer in search of a question. With 12k miles you'll save a hundred bucks. Maybe.

Besides all the cool kids want electric now. 18650 is the new hybrid.

 

[weasley]

Volvo make a diesel hybrid and Land Rover used to, so it is obviously not "disastrous" nor impossible, nor unprofitable. True, these models are going or gone now in favour of PHEVs with gasoline engines, but once upon a time they were a thing, and a thing you could buy (rather than a concept or prototype).

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: OilFilters
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Notice I haven't gone through a battery yet, so maybe 10% losses every time you put power in a battery, and another 10% loss for battery discharge to the motor.
Lithium batteries are nearly 100% efficient. Significantly more efficient when charging than lead acid.
Yes, you're right, I found something on the internet yesterday that said modern Li-ion batteries are 99% efficient charge-discharge. Much better than some of us assumed.
However, losses on the order of 10% do happen in the charging electronics & generator (kinetic energy to electrical energy conversion).

Therefore, as you drive a hybrid, every time you re-gen brake and/or drive a generator with an IC engine, you can assume around 10% loss there.
Input electrical wire energy to a Li-ion battery only loses about 1%, but note that is from the input wire to the internal battery guts.

 

[supton]

Li-ion batteries don't heat up when charging? Is that true for fast charge also?

I'm a bit dubious--if the battery has to have thermal management, then I question how efficient it is.

 

[KrisZ]

Must be some funny/selective math going on with the 99% efficiency claims for li-ion batteries.

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: Silk

Perhaps you fixed thousands of bum Toyota's, but if you look at the statistics over MILLIONS of them, you too will agree that they are the most dependable in the history of cars.

I too laugh...when people base their conclusions on a very small sample.

 

[DdDd]

"Volvo make a diesel hybrid and Land Rover used to, so it is obviously not "disastrous" nor impossible, nor unprofitable"


In markets with far looser emissions standards yes.

Also outside of the US diesel is usually taxed far less than gasoline. There is no such financial incentive here.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: lovcom

Perhaps you fixed thousands of bum Toyota's, but if you look at the statistics over MILLIONS of them, you too will agree that they are the most dependable in the history of cars.

I too laugh...when people base their conclusions on a very small sample.


When it comes to Toyota, I too mindlessly and religiously subscribe to polls and "statistics" ignoring and disqualifying my own obvious sensibilities, because polls and "statistics" would never be used to influence public opinion- especially not when there is a 6B dollar campaign behind it all. Also, Hollary Clintron is doing a mighty fine job as President.....


Hehe. You guys can enjoy your delusions, just kindly please keep them to yourselves

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: lovcom

Perhaps you fixed thousands of bum Toyota's, but if you look at the statistics over MILLIONS of them, you too will agree that they are the most dependable in the history of cars.

I too laugh...when people base their conclusions on a very small sample.


When it comes to Toyota, I too mindlessly and religiously subscribe to polls and "statistics" ignoring and disqualifying my own obvious sensibilities, because polls and "statistics" would never be used to influence public opinion- especially not when there is a 6B dollar campaign behind it all. Also, Hollary Clintron is doing a mighty fine job as President.....


Hehe. You guys can enjoy your delusions, just kindly please keep them to yourselves

This is an example of your kind of logic:

I know 1 man who smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day for 80 years and he never got lung cancer. Therefore I will smoke too!

You ignore statistics to your pearl.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: lovcom

Perhaps you fixed thousands of bum Toyota's, but if you look at the statistics over MILLIONS of them, you too will agree that they are the most dependable in the history of cars.

I too laugh...when people base their conclusions on a very small sample.


When it comes to Toyota, I too mindlessly and religiously subscribe to polls and "statistics" ignoring and disqualifying my own obvious sensibilities, because polls and "statistics" would never be used to influence public opinion- especially not when there is a 6B dollar campaign behind it all. Also, Hollary Clintron is doing a mighty fine job as President.....


Hehe. You guys can enjoy your delusions, just kindly please keep them to yourselves

This is an example of your kind of logic:

I know 1 man who smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day for 80 years and he never got lung cancer. Therefore I will smoke too!

You ignore statistics to your pearl.


The various, heavily biased surveys/scores are statistics of people's opinions.

True reliability statistics can be serviced from manufacturer's internal warranty claims, which of course is a closely guarded secret by the industry.

Keep the plebs ignorant, brand loyal and fighting amongst each other over stuff they have no true knowledge of.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: lovcom


This is an example of your kind of logic:

I know 1 man who smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day for 80 years and he never got lung cancer. Therefore I will smoke too!

You ignore statistics to your pearl.


No, you're simply playing the sample size card and that's entirely irrelevant because Silk and myself here, are playing the "reality" and "credibility of your polls" card. Toyota's $tatistical PR is more akin to psychological gaslighting (a form of psychological abuse) than it is a representation of reality, and we can support the fallibility of Toyota all day and night. In fact, there's so much objective data about Toyota's fallibility, even DESPITE the MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR PER ANUM WHITEWASHING AND UNDER-RUG-SWEEPING CAMPAIGNS backed by millions of mindless minions willing to PR for them, free of charge, in their personal free time.

Do you enjoy the feeling of cognitive dissonance and stockholm syndrome tendancies?
Originally Posted By: MIT Sloan Management Review

A basic principle of risk management is to identify risks early and eliminate them while they are still minor problems. Toyota executives had a number of warnings about its deteriorating quality. In early 2009, for example, before the massive recalls, Toyota disbanded a high-level task force that had been set up in 2005 to deal with quality issues. A Toyota manager explained the decision by saying that management had come to believe that quality control was part of the company’s DNA and therefore they didn’t need a special committee to enforce it.


LOL@"Most dependable brand in history" hahaha yeah, apparently. More like most conceited and entitled...