Why are BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi so expensive to fix?

[John105]

I don't know why people try to compare apples to oranges. They just have a different system. The whole complaint here is that it's expensive to repair. The repairs are made in the US so the higher rates are US labor rates. European rates might have something to do with the build cost but BMW, Mercedes, Audi are pretty profitable. Total income in Europe is lower than US though so there are trade offs to have lots of "free" services provided by the government. They bury you in the US for free too, those are known as pauper's graves and don't come with a headstone, just leave the body unclaimed at the morgue. Part of the higher labor rate at Mercedes would be some of the freebies you always get like a free rental, car wash, drinks etc so they need the higher labor rate to make up for it. Got a "cheap" free C class rental once at the Mercedes dealer, it was still a 40k car though.

All the Germans have become mainstream to cater to the USA. For example, it used to be the BMW turn signal stalks, wiper controls, had no detent. Tap up to signal turn right, tap up to cancel. Wipers same thing. Cruise control always on, no on and off switch. Today, all that is gone, because Americans didn't like the way those controls were, too confusing. confusing? lol

Used to be German car dealer only replaced brake pads and rotors together. Because it's the right (expensive) way to do things. Other cars routinely replace pads only, meanwhile the rotor has a lip. Proof in the pudding that rotors/pads is the right way? When BMW had free included maintenance, that's what was included for free. Today I think they do pads only, Americanized services...

 

[Wolf359]

All the Germans have become mainstream to cater to the USA. For example, it used to be the BMW turn signal stalks, wiper controls, had no detent. Tap up to signal turn right, tap up to cancel. Wipers same thing. Cruise control always on, no on and off switch. Today, all that is gone, because Americans didn't like the way those controls were, too confusing. confusing? lol

Used to be German car dealer only replaced brake pads and rotors together. Because it's the right (expensive) way to do things. Other cars routinely replace pads only, meanwhile the rotor has a lip. Proof in the pudding that rotors/pads is the right way? When BMW had free included maintenance, that's what was included for free. Today I think they do pads only, Americanized services...

On my Mercedes, it does both, give it a tap and it signals 3 times for lane changes, hit it harder and it stays on if you're waiting at a light. Lots of other cars now have that feature. Cruise control is always on, just tap it up or down to change speed. A longer tap ups the speed by 5 mph otherwise a lighter touch just does 1 mph at a time.

As for rotors, it always depended on the thickeness of the rotors, sometimes the minimum was stamped on the rotor. Germans tended to have thicker rotors so sometimes you could just put a new set of pads on without replacing the rotors, it all depends on the thickness of the rotors. Shops just got lazy and assumed that they were always too thin to turn and replaced them automatically. For the rears, I've been able to just reuse the rotors, the fronts typically got chewed up too much to reuse the rotors. Ceramics pads are better though, don't stop as well as semi-metallics, but don't really chew up the rotor either.

 

[kschachn]

All the Germans have become mainstream to cater to the USA. For example, it used to be the BMW turn signal stalks, wiper controls, had no detent. Tap up to signal turn right, tap up to cancel. Wipers same thing. Cruise control always on, no on and off switch. Today, all that is gone, because Americans didn't like the way those controls were, too confusing. confusing? lol

When was that? My old 530i E34 had detents.

 

[UG_Passat]

When was that? My old 530i E34 had detents.

Around the 2000's.

 

[UG_Passat]

On my Mercedes, it does both, give it a tap and it signals 3 times for lane changes, hit it harder and it stays on if you're waiting at a light. Lots of other cars now have that feature. Cruise control is always on, just tap it up or down to change speed. A longer tap ups the speed by 5 mph otherwise a lighter touch just does 1 mph at a time.

As for rotors, it always depended on the thickeness of the rotors, sometimes the minimum was stamped on the rotor. Germans tended to have thicker rotors so sometimes you could just put a new set of pads on without replacing the rotors, it all depends on the thickness of the rotors. Shops just got lazy and assumed that they were always too thin to turn and replaced them automatically. For the rears, I've been able to just reuse the rotors, the fronts typically got chewed up too much to reuse the rotors. Ceramics pads are better though, don't stop as well as semi-metallics, but don't really chew up the rotor either.

My VW's had "thin" rotors, where the difference between a fresh rotor and one that needed replacement wasn't that much... 3mm total front and 2mm total wear in the rear.

 

[2EHA]

Around the 2000's.

e60 e65 e90 did this

 

[MCompact]

All the Germans have become mainstream to cater to the USA. For example, it used to be the BMW turn signal stalks, wiper controls, had no detent. Tap up to signal turn right, tap up to cancel. Wipers same thing. Cruise control always on, no on and off switch. Today, all that is gone, because Americans didn't like the way those controls were, too confusing. confusing? lol

Used to be German car dealer only replaced brake pads and rotors together. Because it's the right (expensive) way to do things. Other cars routinely replace pads only, meanwhile the rotor has a lip. Proof in the pudding that rotors/pads is the right way? When BMW had free included maintenance, that's what was included for free. Today I think they do pads only, Americanized services...

When I worked at BMW as a product specialist it was clear that Munich was determined to eliminate anything that might impact their J.D. Power rankings. Consequently, many unique BMW features(such as the air temperature control on the face level vents and the stalk-mounted cruise control) were eliminated. Most BMWs have been dumbed down in order to win the approval of the people who buy them to wear rather than drive.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

When was that? My old 530i E34 had detents.

Same with my E46, E90 (2), and F32.

 

[John105]

When I worked at BMW as a product specialist it was clear that Munich was determined to eliminate anything that might impact their J.D. Power rankings. Consequently, many unique BMW features(such as the air temperature control on the face level vents and the stalk-mounted cruise control) were eliminated. Most BMWs have been dumbed down in order to win the approval of the people who buy them to wear rather than drive.

My car even has heat after the engine has been shut off. I used this feature 2X since 2007 and it lasted about 30 min lol I thought it's cool and environmentally friendly, and over the top. But I honestly love the turn signal design as well as the wipers. Feels like no wear/tear and clicking.

BMW is such a mainstream car today. If I'm not mistaken there are only 2 models that can have a manual transmission today, and they must be base modes (M3/M4). If M2 is missing from the list, it must be gone as a model?

A side note: My aunt was the original owner of a E36 M3 Lightweight. She bought it after it sat in a showroom for a full year, in 1996. She was very proud that she was able to sell it for what she paid (just over $38k), back in 2002, and she had it over 5 years. 2 years ago, one of them sold for $385k hahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

My car even has heat after the engine has been shut off. I used this feature 2X since 2007 and it lasted about 30 min lol I thought it's cool and environmentally friendly, and over the top. But I honestly love the turn signal design as well as the wipers. Feels like no wear/tear and clicking.

BMW is such a mainstream car today. If I'm not mistaken there are only 2 models that can have a manual transmission today, and they must be base modes (M3/M4). If M2 is missing from the list, it must be gone as a model?

A side note: My aunt was the original owner of a E36 M3 Lightweight. She bought it after it sat in a showroom for a full year, in 1996. She was very proud that she was able to sell it for what she paid (just over $38k), back in 2002, and she had it over 5 years. 2 years ago, one of them sold for $385k hahahahahahahahahahahaha

For the past two decades or so teens were less likely to own a manual. An ever shrinking pool of manual drivers means an ever shrinking pool of manual drivers who could afford a BMW let alone an M.

M2 is still around and the model based on the new 2-series is set to be unveiled soon and I believe initially with the ZF8 AWD. Based on size alone it is the true successor to the E39 M3. The current M3/M4 are as large as an E39 5-series. BMW would sell more manual transmissions but every year they sold less and less that it didn't make sense to spend the $$ to have so many models with a manual certified for sale in the US. People with $$$ want an iPhone on wheels, a badge, and performance numbers. BMW must cater to that crowd to survive.

I stopped driving manual BMW in 2006 because my wife didn't want to learn how to drive it. lol

 

[MCompact]

I’m pretty sure that the G87 M2 will offer a manual. The problem is that it will also come with iDrive 8, which replaces the instrument binnacle with what looks like a widescreen computer monitor. Meh.

 

[John105]

I’m pretty sure that the G87 M2 will offer a manual. The problem is that it will also come with iDrive 8, which replaces the instrument binnacle with what looks like a widescreen computer monitor. Meh.

Looks like the Toyota Supra is getting a manual for 2023. Amazing that would happen and a Z4 roadster wouldn't have it. Roadster to me should only come in a manual!

I can't believe I'm saying this, I saw a 4 series coupe yesterday and it's ugly to me. How could any BMW actually be ugly?

It used to be a 3 series coupe would come out, and it was ordered from a list, zero would be in stock nationwide for sale. Today maybe the shortage is different, but the need to order scenario was not the case on the last two 3 series coupes (4 series if you will).

 

[PWMDMD]

I recently watched a Youtube video that showed what I think was an Audi RS7 getting a timing chain service and water pump replacement at 70k miles. Normally, the tech said the timing chain needs to be serviced every 100K but because this was an RS7 with higher HP it was already throwing codes at 70K. To do this service the entire front of the car needs to be disassembled and the entire engine removed. The water pump is driven by sprockets running off timing but it turns a shaft that then leaves the front of the engine and drives the pump at the rear of the engine. The tech said several times this needs to happen every 100k miles. I can only imagine what this single service costs.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Looks like the Toyota Supra is getting a manual for 2023. Amazing that would happen and a Z4 roadster wouldn't have it. Roadster to me should only come in a manual!

I can't believe I'm saying this, I saw a 4 series coupe yesterday and it's ugly to me. How could any BMW actually be ugly?

It used to be a 3 series coupe would come out, and it was ordered from a list, zero would be in stock nationwide for sale. Today maybe the shortage is different, but the need to order scenario was not the case on the last two 3 series coupes (4 series if you will).

Supra owners are different from Z4 owners.

The new front end is so polarizing that BMW has been able to ban the negativity on BMW forums.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I recently watched a Youtube video that showed what I think was an Audi RS7 getting a timing chain service and water pump replacement at 70k miles. Normally, the tech said the timing chain needs to be serviced every 100K but because this was an RS7 with higher HP it was already throwing codes at 70K. To do this service the entire front of the car needs to be disassembled and the entire engine removed. The water pump is driven by sprockets running off timing but it turns a shaft that then leaves the front of the engine and drives the pump at the rear of the engine. The tech said several times this needs to happen every 100k miles. I can only imagine what this single service costs.

That's Audi for ya.

 

[PWMDMD]

That's Audi for ya.

In general, I find it amazing how few manufacturers seem to design vehicles with serviceability in mind. Aren't they paying more for the additional time it takes to disassemble entire sections of the vehicle to replace a part that a few decades ago was a simple unbolt, replace and bolt back on? Even simple things like fluid changes these days seem unreasonably difficult sometimes.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

In general, I find it amazing how few manufacturers seem to design vehicles with serviceability in mind. Aren't they paying more for the additional time it takes to disassemble entire sections of the vehicle to replace a part that a few decades ago was a simple unbolt, replace and bolt back on? Even simple things like fluid changes these days seem unreasonably difficult sometimes.

IMO It's all about packaging requirements and manufacturing efficiency. Plenty of examples of dumb engineering decisions by automakers. OTHH the reality is that things like a twin turbo V8 take up a lot of physical space so if customers want it, compromises are part of the trade-off.

 

[John105]

I recently watched a Youtube video that showed what I think was an Audi RS7 getting a timing chain service and water pump replacement at 70k miles. Normally, the tech said the timing chain needs to be serviced every 100K but because this was an RS7 with higher HP it was already throwing codes at 70K. To do this service the entire front of the car needs to be disassembled and the entire engine removed. The water pump is driven by sprockets running off timing but it turns a shaft that then leaves the front of the engine and drives the pump at the rear of the engine. The tech said several times this needs to happen every 100k miles. I can only imagine what this single service costs.

It was common knowledge that there was a reason why RS4s were so cheap. they were very sweet but often required a $20k timing chain job. i.e. disposable car EXCEPT of course for DIY who basically shoplift the vehicle on the used market! Remember retail prices are often 10X a DIY. Like BMW ABS $4,200 all day long at the dealer, $249 (back in 2016 maybe it's a lot more like $350 or $400 today) DIY. The V8 BMW $10,000 coolant leak was always intriguing to me--if you see a 8 cyl BMW like a 7 series or X5 with white smoke out the tail, that's why.

Just googled the RS4 and they seem to be around $30k--I think this is covid pricing. I was expecting to see something like $10k.

 

[John105]

It was common knowledge that there was a reason why RS4s were so cheap. they were very sweet but often required a $20k timing chain job. i.e. disposable car EXCEPT of course for DIY who basically shoplift the vehicle on the used market! Remember retail prices are often 10X a DIY. Like BMW ABS $4,200 all day long at the dealer, $249 (back in 2016 maybe it's a lot more like $350 or $400 today) DIY. The V8 BMW $10,000 coolant leak was always intriguing to me--if you see a 8 cyl BMW like a 7 series or X5 with white smoke out the tail, that's why.

Just googled the RS4 and they seem to be around $30k--I think this is covid pricing. I was expecting to see something like $10k. Unless you can DIY that chain, you're buying the car for $50k.

 

[PWMDMD]

It was common knowledge that there was a reason why RS4s were so cheap. they were very sweet but often required a $20k timing chain job. i.e. disposable car EXCEPT of course for DIY who basically shoplift the vehicle on the used market! Remember retail prices are often 10X a DIY. Like BMW ABS $4,200 all day long at the dealer, $249 (back in 2016 maybe it's a lot more like $350 or $400 today) DIY. The V8 BMW $10,000 coolant leak was always intriguing to me--if you see a 8 cyl BMW like a 7 series or X5 with white smoke out the tail, that's why.

Just googled the RS4 and they seem to be around $30k--I think this is covid pricing. I was expecting to see something like $10k.

I leased a 2013 S5 and that's about as long-term as ever wanted to get with Audi. It was a sweet car but there was a sigh of relief handing it back in!