Good point. Looking at the engine type/model tells you only so much about the test. One needs to carefully look at the fine details of the test and testing equipment. For example, they may increase the ring gaps beyond design parameters to accelerate the degradation of the oil. Simply noting the number of hours any particular test is run can fool the neophyte as the shorter test may actually be more severe. Another example is they may change valve spring pressures to accelerate wear testing. They vary these parameters to keep the length of the test reasonably economical while insuring that they can obtain statistically valid discrimination between oil quality.
What's the special thing about VW 502.00 oils?
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Good point. Looking at the engine type/model tells you only so much about the test. One needs to carefully look at the fine details of the test and testing equipment. For example, they may increase the ring gaps beyond design parameters to accelerate the degradation of the oil. Simply noting the number of hours any particular test is run can fool the neophyte as the shorter test may actually be more severe. Another example is they may change valve spring pressures to accelerate wear testing. They vary these parameters to keep the length of the test reasonably economical while insuring that they can obtain statistically valid discrimination between oil quality.
How far will that $6/qt oil take you in a VW? $2/qt oil will take you 10K miles in many Hondas.
Ok, so he has a 2.0T. The many UOAs I've seen of it show it's not easy on oil and has tendency toward fuel dilution. I wasn't impressed with the UOAs I saw of GC in this engine but I haven't seen many. I think (that could change) that 2.0T owners should try shear stable 5W-40 or 10W-40 synthetics in this engine. Perhaps it would cut back on fuel dilution. Maybe it wouldn't but that's a step toward finding out what this engine does best on. Problem is that I can't think of any easy to get and reasonably priced shear stable 5W or 10W-40 NON-HDEO synthetics! After reading Terry say some engines are showing higher levels of deposits with some HDEOs, I'm cautious about recommending them in gas engines.
The higher specifity of the oil may correlate with the tempermentalism of the engine. VW may want to focus on the engineering aspects of their engine as opposed to creating an infinite number of specifications for their "quirky" engines.
How the engine degreades the oil in testing DOES matter. Why would it not? We are speaking relative to the performance in a completely different engine, one the frys the oil. Why not use a old Ford Model-A for oil certification, then put it in a new twin-turbo 5-valve? It's not hard to understand that an oil that does ok for X hours in engine "A" might do horrible in engine "B" in a shorter period. Does VW even use 502 in Europe for 1.8t and esp 2.0T applications? I think not. They use 504 and 503.01. VW 502 in a VW 2.0l is a BUNK spec.
Thinking a 10 year-old test done on a lame engine is relavent to the latest turbo applications is simply delusional. Typical of AoA incompetece in this area.
Meeting the VW 502.00 spec requires testing in the 2.0L/115 Hp engine as well as the 1.6L, IDI diesel. This latter requirement is actually the key part of the VW 505.00 spec, but as a practical matter most every VW 502.00 oil I've seen also meets the diesel spec.
You can make a strong case that testing in the 115 Hp, N/A VW engine is insufficient when you consider the small turbos and multivalve engines that now make up the VW/Audi lineup.
VW 503.00 and 503.01 are more stringent specs than the older VW 502.00 spec. The VW 503.01 spec is for oils with HT/HS of at least 3.5 Cp @ 150C and the VW 503.00 spec is for lower viscosity oils with HT/HS in the 2.9-3.4 Cp range. So I would actually recommend those instead of the VW 502.00 spec for modern VW/Audi engine.
The obvious question is if you can use the slightly thinner VW 503.00 oils in older VW/Audi engines with flat tappet cams? I think that depends on the particular formulation and the additive treat level. FWIW, I've been using the thinner, VW 503.00 rated, Amsoil xw-30 formulations in my 1.8L,225 Hp Audi TT and they work as well as the previous thicker versions, even with regards to oil consumption.
TD
You can make a strong case that testing in the 115 Hp, N/A VW engine is insufficient when you consider the small turbos and multivalve engines that now make up the VW/Audi lineup.
VW 503.00 and 503.01 are more stringent specs than the older VW 502.00 spec. The VW 503.01 spec is for oils with HT/HS of at least 3.5 Cp @ 150C and the VW 503.00 spec is for lower viscosity oils with HT/HS in the 2.9-3.4 Cp range. So I would actually recommend those instead of the VW 502.00 spec for modern VW/Audi engine.
The obvious question is if you can use the slightly thinner VW 503.00 oils in older VW/Audi engines with flat tappet cams? I think that depends on the particular formulation and the additive treat level. FWIW, I've been using the thinner, VW 503.00 rated, Amsoil xw-30 formulations in my 1.8L,225 Hp Audi TT and they work as well as the previous thicker versions, even with regards to oil consumption.
TD
In addition to TeeDub's info, I'll add some more.
IMO, the VW 502.00 is not as rigorous a spec as VW 503.01 or MB 229.5 but it gaurantees a decent oil. VW is not striving for perfection with the 502 spec but are using it to provide decent performance and have a reasonably wide selection of oils (in the U.S.) available that meet the spec. They rightly don't want people using whatever dino oil in their various engines. The test sequences needed to pass VW 502.00 do not use only the VW 2.0L engine as TeeDub already pointed out.
Here's the M111E sludge test it must pass that uses a Daimler Chrysler 4-cylinder engine: http://www.cectests.org/synop/l_53_t_95.pdf
Here's the VW T4 test it must pass that does use the 2.0L VW engine: http://www.swri.edu/4org/d08/global/volkswgn/default.htm
On Slide 13 is some info on the PV-5106 Valve Train Wear test. Actually the whole presentation is interesting.
http://www.cibasc.com/pf/docMDMS.asp?targetlibrary=CHBS_PA_MADS&docnumber=8090
IMO, the VW 502.00 is not as rigorous a spec as VW 503.01 or MB 229.5 but it gaurantees a decent oil. VW is not striving for perfection with the 502 spec but are using it to provide decent performance and have a reasonably wide selection of oils (in the U.S.) available that meet the spec. They rightly don't want people using whatever dino oil in their various engines. The test sequences needed to pass VW 502.00 do not use only the VW 2.0L engine as TeeDub already pointed out.
Here's the M111E sludge test it must pass that uses a Daimler Chrysler 4-cylinder engine: http://www.cectests.org/synop/l_53_t_95.pdf
Here's the VW T4 test it must pass that does use the 2.0L VW engine: http://www.swri.edu/4org/d08/global/volkswgn/default.htm
On Slide 13 is some info on the PV-5106 Valve Train Wear test. Actually the whole presentation is interesting.
http://www.cibasc.com/pf/docMDMS.asp?targetlibrary=CHBS_PA_MADS&docnumber=8090
TD,
Can you tell me which VW's had flat tappet cams?
Thanks,
WW
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You still don't get the point about the test sequence being performed with the same test equipment.
Now you "think" what oil can or can't be used in which VW and Audi engine... Think all you want, but you are way off. Here I have the German dealer bulletins about oil in old and the latest VW and Audi engines. The highlighted parts talk about oil specs for vehicles without WIV (not ultra-extended drain):
- Audi A3 3.2 A8 6.0: VW 504/502/50301/50501
- other Audi engines (except RS6): VW 504/501.01/502)
- VW R3 R4 R5 (3,4,5, cylinder inline engines), FSI V6 V8: VW 504/502/50501/503.01
- VW VR5 VR6 FSI W8 W12: VW 504/502/505.01/503.01
With the exception of the RS6, VW 502 is acceptable in all VW and Audi gas engines (without WIV/LongLife Service -- and even then VW502 oil is sanctioned as long as you stick to normal drain intervals).
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Quote:
How far will that $6/qt oil take you in a VW? $2/qt oil will take you 10K miles in many Hondas.
Those 16 years of Golf ownership really scarred you for life, huh?
I answered your question, now you come up with Honda and $2 oil. Let me ask you, what Group III or Group IV oil can you get for a regular retail price of $2 a quart?
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The 2.0T has indeed low-friction roller cam followers.
All that chart says is 502 is superceded by 504. VW ~allowing~ 502 in some of their cars does not make it best nor up-to-date. I don't think we can expect the same level of performance or formulation from a 502 oil like Syntec 5w-40 than from a VW503.01/MB229.3/5 like Syntec 0w-30 or Mobil 1 0w-40.
The OP asked: what is so "special" about 502 oils? Can we address that? I say there is nothing special about them, they are in fact obsolete, as your chart says. Castrol has no 502-specific oils currently marketed in Europe. 502 is a sham-tec spec foisted on the NA market, where the consumers have no clue. Those consumers come here for further info, and explaining that 502 is nothing special *when newer/better spec oils are RIGHT THERE on the shelf next to them* is absolutely sound advice.
The OP asked: what is so "special" about 502 oils? Can we address that? I say there is nothing special about them, they are in fact obsolete, as your chart says. Castrol has no 502-specific oils currently marketed in Europe. 502 is a sham-tec spec foisted on the NA market, where the consumers have no clue. Those consumers come here for further info, and explaining that 502 is nothing special *when newer/better spec oils are RIGHT THERE on the shelf next to them* is absolutely sound advice.
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VW does not list obsolete specs. The one-fits-all oil spec VW504/507 is an effort to please customers who want one sauce for all engines.
What's "special" (not that I'd call it special) about VW 502 is that it meets ALL performance criteria of ANY VW and Audi gas engine (with the exception of the RS6) that is not being operated under LLS service.
If you want to fantasize and interpret the VW and Audi bulletins according to your false beliefs, with an obvious lack of interpretation skills and based on nothing but personal preferences and whims, so be it. I don't care!
What's "special" (not that I'd call it special) about VW 502 is that it meets ALL performance criteria of ANY VW and Audi gas engine (with the exception of the RS6) that is not being operated under LLS service.
If you want to fantasize and interpret the VW and Audi bulletins according to your false beliefs, with an obvious lack of interpretation skills and based on nothing but personal preferences and whims, so be it. I don't care!
The VW 504.00 and VW 507.00 formulations are backward compatible, low "SAPS" (sulfated ash, phosphorus, sulfur) oils, much like the latest version of VW 505.01, BMW/LLO4 and MB 229.51.
I've yet to do enough testing of these new oils with reduced additive levels to convince myself that they are indeed superior, except for emissions systems compatibility. For example, I liked the original SL/CI-4 rated, Amsoil 5w-40 much better than their current 8 TBN, low SAPS version, particularly with regards to extended drains.
The VW 504.00 oils I've seen in Europe show TBN's in the 6-8 range as well, so I rather doubt you going to be running long drains with those in the 1.8L turbo engines w/ 4-5 quart sumps.
I've yet to do enough testing of these new oils with reduced additive levels to convince myself that they are indeed superior, except for emissions systems compatibility. For example, I liked the original SL/CI-4 rated, Amsoil 5w-40 much better than their current 8 TBN, low SAPS version, particularly with regards to extended drains.
The VW 504.00 oils I've seen in Europe show TBN's in the 6-8 range as well, so I rather doubt you going to be running long drains with those in the 1.8L turbo engines w/ 4-5 quart sumps.
I have a 2002 S4 (2.7TT)and having read this thread I am somewhat confused. Not having the owners manual in front of me as I write this I seem to recall that it does not specify any of those VW specs for oils and in fact does not even recommend syn based oils which was surprising to me. OCI is recommeded @10K. As I recall it calls for a SM/Sl rated oil and thats as far as it goes. Again, as I recall it states that from the factory it comes with a "high quality 0-30 but that 5-30 is acceptable. I have used M1 5-30 and Havoline 5-30 syns since new with avg. 5K oci. Now I am using GC 0-30 mostly because of the A3 rating for the turbos. But now based on this discussion I don't know if I am using the optimum lube. I know that consensus is rare but any advice!! Thanks
No way does an 02' Audi manual say use SM oil. GC 0W-30 is a good choice for a 2.7T S4.
Oops, didn't mean to imply that no SM oil can meet the right specs, just that Audi didn't say use SM oils in 02' manuals.
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Well, do you think any of us should look it up for you in your manual?
On a good note, you already used M1 5W-30 which didn't meet the minimum requirements and your engine is still running. So who cares anymore...
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