Potential harm?
Losing your warranty if you have an overly anal dealer.
Losing your warranty if you have an overly anal dealer.
What Potential Harm From 0W Oils ?
- Thread starter ChrisD46
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Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Mr Critic, I have asked this Q? elsewhere with no replies. Can you tell me, in detail, how a car manufacturer and its engineers, determine what wt. an engine oil is, and how it might have ruined an engine if such claim is made? It seems they would have to be NASA scientist or darn near that.
I would wager that most claims never reach that stage. A simple denial from a dealer or manufacturer is enough for most owners to move on. The average owner does not have the time or financial resources to battle a vehicle manufacturer on a warranty claim denial. Remember, the vehicle is out of service while you attempt to fight the manufacturer, and you're left without transportation. It is simply irresponsible for people on this forum to continue advocating against using the OEM specified lubricant while a vehicle is under warranty; most people who take their advice are not in a position to fight the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim.
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Mr Critic, I have asked this Q? elsewhere with no replies. Can you tell me, in detail, how a car manufacturer and its engineers, determine what wt. an engine oil is, and how it might have ruined an engine if such claim is made? It seems they would have to be NASA scientist or darn near that.
I would wager that most claims never reach that stage. A simple denial from a dealer or manufacturer is enough for most owners to move on. The average owner does not have the time or financial resources to battle a vehicle manufacturer on a warranty claim denial. Remember, the vehicle is out of service while you attempt to fight the manufacturer, and you're left without transportation. It is simply irresponsible for people on this forum to continue advocating against using the OEM specified lubricant while a vehicle is under warranty; most people who take their advice are not in a position to fight the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim.
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
The dealership only has so much say in these things. The manufacturer is on the hook for paying out on warranty work and they make the determination. At some point the cost of fighting things out in court gets awfully close to the cost of the repair. Add in the cost of a lost customer and the manufacturer will often be prepared to warranty an engine that they're confident died as a result of maintenance issues.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Mr Critic, I have asked this Q? elsewhere with no replies. Can you tell me, in detail, how a car manufacturer and its engineers, determine what wt. an engine oil is, and how it might have ruined an engine if such claim is made? It seems they would have to be NASA scientist or darn near that.
I would wager that most claims never reach that stage. A simple denial from a dealer or manufacturer is enough for most owners to move on. The average owner does not have the time or financial resources to battle a vehicle manufacturer on a warranty claim denial. Remember, the vehicle is out of service while you attempt to fight the manufacturer, and you're left without transportation. It is simply irresponsible for people on this forum to continue advocating against using the OEM specified lubricant while a vehicle is under warranty; most people who take their advice are not in a position to fight the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim.
I agree with that
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Mr Critic, I have asked this Q? elsewhere with no replies. Can you tell me, in detail, how a car manufacturer and its engineers, determine what wt. an engine oil is, and how it might have ruined an engine if such claim is made? It seems they would have to be NASA scientist or darn near that.
I would wager that most claims never reach that stage. A simple denial from a dealer or manufacturer is enough for most owners to move on. The average owner does not have the time or financial resources to battle a vehicle manufacturer on a warranty claim denial. Remember, the vehicle is out of service while you attempt to fight the manufacturer, and you're left without transportation. It is simply irresponsible for people on this forum to continue advocating against using the OEM specified lubricant while a vehicle is under warranty; most people who take their advice are not in a position to fight the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim.
I agree with that
Originally Posted By: FZ1
5W-20 is thin enough. If you prefer thin,then just pick 1 of the thin 5w-20's.
+1
As if a 5w-20 wouldn't be adequate for most applications in winter.
And a 5w30 wouldn't be suitable for the rest of the year.
Talk about trying to squeeze the last MPG out of your vehicle?
How thin do people want to go????
There is one very well known and respected oil maufacturer in the USA that has in the past recommended their top line 0w-30 oil for a particular application.
They have since revieved/revised their recommendation up to 5w30 which is in line with the OEM, with a caveat for higher ambient temps where they recommend a 10w-30.
Obviously they cant necessarily follow the thinner is best at all costs mantra.
It's all dependant upon the application as to what's appropriate.
5W-20 is thin enough. If you prefer thin,then just pick 1 of the thin 5w-20's.
+1
As if a 5w-20 wouldn't be adequate for most applications in winter.
And a 5w30 wouldn't be suitable for the rest of the year.
Talk about trying to squeeze the last MPG out of your vehicle?
How thin do people want to go????
There is one very well known and respected oil maufacturer in the USA that has in the past recommended their top line 0w-30 oil for a particular application.
They have since revieved/revised their recommendation up to 5w30 which is in line with the OEM, with a caveat for higher ambient temps where they recommend a 10w-30.
Obviously they cant necessarily follow the thinner is best at all costs mantra.
It's all dependant upon the application as to what's appropriate.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
The wife's 2007 Kia Sedona 3.8L just turned over 100K miles ...Since it's out of warrentee now I am tempted to try a 0W30 M1 (5W20 shown on the fill cap) and run it 6K miles / 6 months . My Hyundai is still under warrentee so probably best to stay with 5W20 (as stamped on the oil fill cap) .
Why only 6K?
Agreed.
You also may even consider going with another well known brand of oil and try for extended drain intervals supported by UOAs.
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
The wife's 2007 Kia Sedona 3.8L just turned over 100K miles ...Since it's out of warrentee now I am tempted to try a 0W30 M1 (5W20 shown on the fill cap) and run it 6K miles / 6 months . My Hyundai is still under warrentee so probably best to stay with 5W20 (as stamped on the oil fill cap) .
Why only 6K?
Agreed.
You also may even consider going with another well known brand of oil and try for extended drain intervals supported by UOAs.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Mr Critic, I have asked this Q? elsewhere with no replies. Can you tell me, in detail, how a car manufacturer and its engineers, determine what wt. an engine oil is, and how it might have ruined an engine if such claim is made? It seems they would have to be NASA scientist or darn near that.
I would wager that most claims never reach that stage. A simple denial from a dealer or manufacturer is enough for most owners to move on. The average owner does not have the time or financial resources to battle a vehicle manufacturer on a warranty claim denial. Remember, the vehicle is out of service while you attempt to fight the manufacturer, and you're left without transportation. It is simply irresponsible for people on this forum to continue advocating against using the OEM specified lubricant while a vehicle is under warranty; most people who take their advice are not in a position to fight the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim.
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
That is an intersting hypothesis.
I should imagine that someone who was so inclined, has inherited their financial resources that they will most likely squander in order to pursue it.
Someone who has earned their money the hard way, will automatically be a bit more savy than to put themselves in this position in the first place simply to pursue another potential 0.1 of a MPG
I think the ROI would not be forthcoming.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Mr Critic, I have asked this Q? elsewhere with no replies. Can you tell me, in detail, how a car manufacturer and its engineers, determine what wt. an engine oil is, and how it might have ruined an engine if such claim is made? It seems they would have to be NASA scientist or darn near that.
I would wager that most claims never reach that stage. A simple denial from a dealer or manufacturer is enough for most owners to move on. The average owner does not have the time or financial resources to battle a vehicle manufacturer on a warranty claim denial. Remember, the vehicle is out of service while you attempt to fight the manufacturer, and you're left without transportation. It is simply irresponsible for people on this forum to continue advocating against using the OEM specified lubricant while a vehicle is under warranty; most people who take their advice are not in a position to fight the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim.
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
That is an intersting hypothesis.
I should imagine that someone who was so inclined, has inherited their financial resources that they will most likely squander in order to pursue it.
Someone who has earned their money the hard way, will automatically be a bit more savy than to put themselves in this position in the first place simply to pursue another potential 0.1 of a MPG
I think the ROI would not be forthcoming.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
ekpolk has some posts on this matter, please search the archives.
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
ekpolk has some posts on this matter, please search the archives.
I tend to side with THE Critic about potential warranty issues if you deviate from the manufactures guidelines.
In the first place, the oil may not be the cause of the defect. Let's say that the engine spins a bearing because of no fault of the oil. The mfg. runs the oil through the lab and determines it's not the mfg. spec. and bingo, there goes your warranty (probable cause). At best, it means a longer, more expensive fight on your hand.
Do the oil companies back their product if you use other than the car mfg. recommendation? I doubt it.
The car mfg.'s do not roll over and expose their soft underbelly in these matters. Toyota denied the sludge problem. Subaru fought the head gasket issues. GM fought the gasket defects.
I had experience getting a mfg. to buy a car back under the Lemon Law. We lost in the first round of arbitration because all our ducks were not aligned (paper trail). After failure to remedy the problem after several more tries (establishing another valid paper trail), we hired a Lemon Law lawyer (pro bono) and she crushed the mfg. in short order. But still, it was nearly an 8 month process. The mfg. fought very hard and EVERY detail was scrutinized. They did not play nice.
It boils down to personal choice and how comfortable one is with risk. Having been through the Lemon Law procedure once, I choose to tow the line. I do use aftermarket oil filters and that could cause a bit of extra trouble also in a warranty claim . But in this case I am using the recommended filter by the filter mfg.. If I used a different filter (not specified), then I could see myself being held accountable.
In the first place, the oil may not be the cause of the defect. Let's say that the engine spins a bearing because of no fault of the oil. The mfg. runs the oil through the lab and determines it's not the mfg. spec. and bingo, there goes your warranty (probable cause). At best, it means a longer, more expensive fight on your hand.
Do the oil companies back their product if you use other than the car mfg. recommendation? I doubt it.
The car mfg.'s do not roll over and expose their soft underbelly in these matters. Toyota denied the sludge problem. Subaru fought the head gasket issues. GM fought the gasket defects.
I had experience getting a mfg. to buy a car back under the Lemon Law. We lost in the first round of arbitration because all our ducks were not aligned (paper trail). After failure to remedy the problem after several more tries (establishing another valid paper trail), we hired a Lemon Law lawyer (pro bono) and she crushed the mfg. in short order. But still, it was nearly an 8 month process. The mfg. fought very hard and EVERY detail was scrutinized. They did not play nice.
It boils down to personal choice and how comfortable one is with risk. Having been through the Lemon Law procedure once, I choose to tow the line. I do use aftermarket oil filters and that could cause a bit of extra trouble also in a warranty claim . But in this case I am using the recommended filter by the filter mfg.. If I used a different filter (not specified), then I could see myself being held accountable.
A 0w30 oil might shear faster than a similar 5w30 or 10w30, but only oil analysis could show that.
Since I never experience temperatures below freezing, I use 10w30 synthetic.
Since I never experience temperatures below freezing, I use 10w30 synthetic.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
If it were me, I'd rather be cautious and use the exact grade called for, with the proper approvals, and follow the specified OCI. However, as to your question, there are certain circumstances, for sure, where the owner would be in the clear.
For one, using the wrong grade of oil isn't going to have anything to do with a premature wheel bearing failure. So, if the manufacturer or dealer were to try to deny warranty for a wheel bearing because you used 0w-30 instead of 5w30 in your new Nissan, they'd be out to lunch. The oil (or OCI) would have to have caused the failure for them to deny warranty. In some cases, that's going to be hard to prove, even though the onus is not on the consumer. In my wheel bearing example, it should be pretty clear.
It also would help to have the oil company on side. Some oil companies are picky to tell you to follow OEM recommendations to the letter. M1 is guaranteed to 10,000 miles or the OEM interval, whichever is longest, and they recommend to use a 0w-30 or a 0w-20 where a 5w30 or a 5w-20 are called for. I'd feel better about that than extending or using the "wrong" grade with Brand Y, even if UOAs said to carry on, at least while under warranty.
But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
If it were me, I'd rather be cautious and use the exact grade called for, with the proper approvals, and follow the specified OCI. However, as to your question, there are certain circumstances, for sure, where the owner would be in the clear.
For one, using the wrong grade of oil isn't going to have anything to do with a premature wheel bearing failure. So, if the manufacturer or dealer were to try to deny warranty for a wheel bearing because you used 0w-30 instead of 5w30 in your new Nissan, they'd be out to lunch. The oil (or OCI) would have to have caused the failure for them to deny warranty. In some cases, that's going to be hard to prove, even though the onus is not on the consumer. In my wheel bearing example, it should be pretty clear.
It also would help to have the oil company on side. Some oil companies are picky to tell you to follow OEM recommendations to the letter. M1 is guaranteed to 10,000 miles or the OEM interval, whichever is longest, and they recommend to use a 0w-30 or a 0w-20 where a 5w30 or a 5w-20 are called for. I'd feel better about that than extending or using the "wrong" grade with Brand Y, even if UOAs said to carry on, at least while under warranty.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
ekpolk has some posts on this matter, please search the archives.
Thank you sir, I will look those up.
I was not trying to press you for the answers. I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
ekpolk has some posts on this matter, please search the archives.
Thank you sir, I will look those up.
I was not trying to press you for the answers. I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
ekpolk has some posts on this matter, please search the archives.
Thank you sir, I will look those up.
I was not trying to press you for the answers. I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
Ekpolk goes over the process of how one would handle a denial, but I do not recall if he goes into the technical details of identifying oil type.
With that said, generally speaking (even if the law says otherwise), the ball is probably going to be in your court to prove that your alternative maintenance program did not contribute to the failed component.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Ok, understood. But, what if the car owner had all the time in the world and wanted it proven he used the wrong wt. oil to ruin the engine; then what? This is the part I have been wanting to know.
ekpolk has some posts on this matter, please search the archives.
Thank you sir, I will look those up.
I was not trying to press you for the answers. I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
Ekpolk goes over the process of how one would handle a denial, but I do not recall if he goes into the technical details of identifying oil type.
With that said, generally speaking (even if the law says otherwise), the ball is probably going to be in your court to prove that your alternative maintenance program did not contribute to the failed component.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
I imagine they could, but only within limits. There's a good chance they could figure out you're using a 20w-50 instead of a 5w-20 with even a cheap UOA, as well as determine you're using a race oil or something strange instead of an approved API/ILSAC oil.
I doubt they'd be able to tell (at least with sufficient certainty) that someone was using 10w-30 when they should have been using 5w30. Besides, before they bothered going overboard with testing oil, they could ask for service records, including receipts.
I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
I imagine they could, but only within limits. There's a good chance they could figure out you're using a 20w-50 instead of a 5w-20 with even a cheap UOA, as well as determine you're using a race oil or something strange instead of an approved API/ILSAC oil.
I doubt they'd be able to tell (at least with sufficient certainty) that someone was using 10w-30 when they should have been using 5w30. Besides, before they bothered going overboard with testing oil, they could ask for service records, including receipts.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
I imagine they could, but only within limits. There's a good chance they could figure out you're using a 20w-50 instead of a 5w-20 with even a cheap UOA, as well as determine you're using a race oil or something strange instead of an approved API/ILSAC oil.
I doubt they'd be able to tell (at least with sufficient certainty) that someone was using 10w-30 when they should have been using 5w30. Besides, before they bothered going overboard with testing oil, they could ask for service records, including receipts.
I feel as if I am getting closer to the answer.
In the last sentence of your reply is the answer I am getting the most.
I always hear, "You better use what is spec'd under warranty or........"
What is "OR" and how is it proven?
I figured Google could answer the Q?, but nothing there either.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I am just trying to figure out how the car manufacturer's engineers analyze the oil samples to determine that it was the incorrect oil, or can they?
I imagine they could, but only within limits. There's a good chance they could figure out you're using a 20w-50 instead of a 5w-20 with even a cheap UOA, as well as determine you're using a race oil or something strange instead of an approved API/ILSAC oil.
I doubt they'd be able to tell (at least with sufficient certainty) that someone was using 10w-30 when they should have been using 5w30. Besides, before they bothered going overboard with testing oil, they could ask for service records, including receipts.
I feel as if I am getting closer to the answer.
In the last sentence of your reply is the answer I am getting the most.
I always hear, "You better use what is spec'd under warranty or........"
What is "OR" and how is it proven?
I figured Google could answer the Q?, but nothing there either.
They will ask for your receipts and cross check with your service record dates to verify what engine oils you were using. No receipts and records to verify service compliance, no warranty claim. It's pretty simple really.
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
They will ask for your receipts and cross check with your service record dates to verify what engine oils you were using. No receipts and records to verify service compliance, no warranty claim. It's pretty simple really.
+1 It isn't rocket science, IF they want to hassle you they can. Keep in mind Lawyers don't work for free, so if you plan on doing your own work, use what they spec, follow the intervals they suggest, and have a paper trail to back you up. That might just save you from hiring a Lawyer if things go bad for you. Then IF they decide to hassle you, you'll be ready.
They will ask for your receipts and cross check with your service record dates to verify what engine oils you were using. No receipts and records to verify service compliance, no warranty claim. It's pretty simple really.
+1 It isn't rocket science, IF they want to hassle you they can. Keep in mind Lawyers don't work for free, so if you plan on doing your own work, use what they spec, follow the intervals they suggest, and have a paper trail to back you up. That might just save you from hiring a Lawyer if things go bad for you. Then IF they decide to hassle you, you'll be ready.
The only harm would be is kicking yourself why didn't I use 0W oils sooner.
Still, ALL the wrong answers. These are answers I am seeing all the time. Yes, I know, keep records and do as the warranty requires.
Ok, let me see if I can ask this any different; If John Doe decides to do his oil changes and follows the warranty, with ALL the records, BUT,this one time he lets the dealership do the OCI. The dealership installs XXWXX instead of the spec'd XWXX, yet they document it as spec'd XWXX, and the engine fails due to this wrong oil issue. The owner makes a claim and the engineers MUST figure out what happened. How do they go about figuring it out? This is the Q? I have been looking for the answer to. How do they figure out if it was the correct spec'd oil instead of the wrong spec'd oil?
Ok, let me see if I can ask this any different; If John Doe decides to do his oil changes and follows the warranty, with ALL the records, BUT,this one time he lets the dealership do the OCI. The dealership installs XXWXX instead of the spec'd XWXX, yet they document it as spec'd XWXX, and the engine fails due to this wrong oil issue. The owner makes a claim and the engineers MUST figure out what happened. How do they go about figuring it out? This is the Q? I have been looking for the answer to. How do they figure out if it was the correct spec'd oil instead of the wrong spec'd oil?
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