I always use propane-isobutane in R12 cars.
Haven't been pulled over for it yet.
Haven't been pulled over for it yet.
We are out of R12 already!
- Thread starter Chris142
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JHZR2
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Are you FIXING leaks or just topping up?
I get it that systems slowly lose charge as the nature of the beast, but I have nearly 40 year old systems stil running well on R12 with just a little care.
I do wish that a blend was identified as a viable retrofit. The risk cross section is pretty low in reality, especially with older, lower use vehicles.
I get it that systems slowly lose charge as the nature of the beast, but I have nearly 40 year old systems stil running well on R12 with just a little care.
I do wish that a blend was identified as a viable retrofit. The risk cross section is pretty low in reality, especially with older, lower use vehicles.
Originally Posted By: 2strokeNorthstar
eBay or TJ
What is TJ ?
eBay or TJ
What is TJ ?
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Cadillacs have a computer controlled ac system and the slightly different pressures make the system turn off.
That can most assuredly be tricked or bypassed.
Not that you really want to convert, but at some point someone is going to have to do the legwork of putting together a circuit to trick that computer, or bypass it completely.
I can't figure out what Chris is talking about. I grew up on a variety of late '80's Cadillacs and I ended up converting them all at some point. Just a few:
'89 Eldorado
'90 Eldorado
'88 Deville
'92 Deville
'95 Deville (iirc, this was factory 134. No conversion on this one)
The systems between these cars were all nearly exactly the same. I don't remember anything being Cadillac specific on them. Typical GM systems (everything was "computer controlled" by then). I didn't need to employ any "tricks". Still blew cold after conversion.
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Originally Posted By: Chris142
Cadillacs have a computer controlled ac system and the slightly different pressures make the system turn off.
That can most assuredly be tricked or bypassed.
Not that you really want to convert, but at some point someone is going to have to do the legwork of putting together a circuit to trick that computer, or bypass it completely.
I can't figure out what Chris is talking about. I grew up on a variety of late '80's Cadillacs and I ended up converting them all at some point. Just a few:
'89 Eldorado
'90 Eldorado
'88 Deville
'92 Deville
'95 Deville (iirc, this was factory 134. No conversion on this one)
The systems between these cars were all nearly exactly the same. I don't remember anything being Cadillac specific on them. Typical GM systems (everything was "computer controlled" by then). I didn't need to employ any "tricks". Still blew cold after conversion.
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I've been using ES12a Industrial in my R12 vehicles. Very effective, and never an issue.
The run is that you cannot use it to convert an R12 system. You can use it in R134 systems legally, so I converted my systems to R134 (without ever putting the R134 in), and then charged them up with ES12a Industrial.
Results? In the worst Florida heat, I can only ever use the maximum AC setting for the first minute or so of starting the cars. After that, I'm going to get my knuckles or face frozen off.
The run is that you cannot use it to convert an R12 system. You can use it in R134 systems legally, so I converted my systems to R134 (without ever putting the R134 in), and then charged them up with ES12a Industrial.
Results? In the worst Florida heat, I can only ever use the maximum AC setting for the first minute or so of starting the cars. After that, I'm going to get my knuckles or face frozen off.
R409A works well in R12 systems too. I has been a long time. IIRC it is a direct replacement and no oil change is required. I ran an 85 E-150 on it for years. It was just as cold as R12. I believe it takes a little less refrigerant than the R12 fill.
Why bother with R12? There are so many very effective replacements. I used Envirosafe in my old mini van for years. Worked perfectly. Apparently there are many very effective drop in replacements for R22 as well.
comstar rs-24 is a drop in replacement
https://www.amazon.com/Comstar-80-100-Refrigerant-Cylinder-Sealed/dp/B01CG3E5R2
Have not used it
https://www.amazon.com/Comstar-80-100-Refrigerant-Cylinder-Sealed/dp/B01CG3E5R2
Have not used it
I still have a mostly full 50 lb tank of R-12 that I bought from a guy some years back. My 92 Cavalier still uses R12 and when I had to replace the compressor last year, I recharged it back with R12. If I ever fix the AC in my 70 Monte, I will use R12 in it.
I see R12 for sale on Craigslist and ebay all the time so it's still out there.
I see R12 for sale on Craigslist and ebay all the time so it's still out there.
Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Is propane-iso illegal , or is it just illegal for a shop to do it?
Doesn't meet EPA, MACS and ASHRAE standards for mobile refrigeration - propane-iso is obviously flammable and poses a risk in a collision - the same concern was raised by Daimler with HF-1234yo.
Chemours markets a HC blend to replace R-134a and R-12 for mobile AC but they can't sell it here.
You know , that is kind of odd . Someone is worried about a pound or three of propane . While they have 10 - 20 gallons ( at what , say 6 pounds per gallon ? ) of gasoline on board ?
I realize it is not perfect , but some / most people have no common sense .
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Is propane-iso illegal , or is it just illegal for a shop to do it?
Doesn't meet EPA, MACS and ASHRAE standards for mobile refrigeration - propane-iso is obviously flammable and poses a risk in a collision - the same concern was raised by Daimler with HF-1234yo.
Chemours markets a HC blend to replace R-134a and R-12 for mobile AC but they can't sell it here.
You know , that is kind of odd . Someone is worried about a pound or three of propane . While they have 10 - 20 gallons ( at what , say 6 pounds per gallon ? ) of gasoline on board ?
I realize it is not perfect , but some / most people have no common sense .
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
You know , that is kind of odd . Someone is worried about a pound or three of propane . While they have 10 - 20 gallons ( at what , say 6 pounds per gallon ? ) of gasoline on board ?
I realize it is not perfect , but some / most people have no common sense .
I've always said gasoline is the most dangerous liquid people can buy without a certification/license.
And the funny part is that the new R-12 replacement Chemours is marketing in the ROW has about 2% of hydrocarbon in the form of butane and n-pentane on the SDS and is rated non-flammable per ASHRAE. In the event of a collision, most of it will flash off from a severed AC system in seconds.
https://www.chemours.com/Refrigerants/en_US/products/Freon/Freon-MO49Plus.html
You know , that is kind of odd . Someone is worried about a pound or three of propane . While they have 10 - 20 gallons ( at what , say 6 pounds per gallon ? ) of gasoline on board ?
I realize it is not perfect , but some / most people have no common sense .
I've always said gasoline is the most dangerous liquid people can buy without a certification/license.
And the funny part is that the new R-12 replacement Chemours is marketing in the ROW has about 2% of hydrocarbon in the form of butane and n-pentane on the SDS and is rated non-flammable per ASHRAE. In the event of a collision, most of it will flash off from a severed AC system in seconds.
https://www.chemours.com/Refrigerants/en_US/products/Freon/Freon-MO49Plus.html
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The run is that you cannot use it to convert an R12 system. You can use it in R134 systems legally, so I converted my systems to R134 (without ever putting the R134 in), and then charged them up with ES12a Industrial.
That's another one of those little nuances that makes no sense to me, but none the less it's legal.
If I ever try propane/isobutane in an R12 system, I can always draw down the system, put the R134a fittings on and then either take them right off or leave them(don't guess it matters aside from the chance of someone seeing an R134a fill port and trying to top it up) and then fill with an HC refrigerant.
After all, "retrofit kits" that are legally sold contain little else other than a set of fittings and a can of R134a that claims to use an oil that will mix with mineral oil...
I too consider the use of an HC refrigerant a negligible safety concern. If you're in an accident bad enough to breech the A/C system, having a fuel line break loose and dump gas on the exhaust manifold or catalytic converter is probably a far greater fire concern.
The run is that you cannot use it to convert an R12 system. You can use it in R134 systems legally, so I converted my systems to R134 (without ever putting the R134 in), and then charged them up with ES12a Industrial.
That's another one of those little nuances that makes no sense to me, but none the less it's legal.
If I ever try propane/isobutane in an R12 system, I can always draw down the system, put the R134a fittings on and then either take them right off or leave them(don't guess it matters aside from the chance of someone seeing an R134a fill port and trying to top it up) and then fill with an HC refrigerant.
After all, "retrofit kits" that are legally sold contain little else other than a set of fittings and a can of R134a that claims to use an oil that will mix with mineral oil...
I too consider the use of an HC refrigerant a negligible safety concern. If you're in an accident bad enough to breech the A/C system, having a fuel line break loose and dump gas on the exhaust manifold or catalytic converter is probably a far greater fire concern.
About flammable refrigerants:
FWIW, Mercedes basically refuses to use the new R1234yf refrigerant because of its flammability. They went so far as to recall their vehicles back in 2013 to replace the refrigerant with R134a. In Europe, R134a has been essentially banned in new cars since Jan 2017, so Mercedes has been forced to use R1234yf since then. However, this is just a stop-gap until they've perfected their CO2 based A/C system, which is already in use on the S-Class and E-Class cars.
FWIW, Mercedes basically refuses to use the new R1234yf refrigerant because of its flammability. They went so far as to recall their vehicles back in 2013 to replace the refrigerant with R134a. In Europe, R134a has been essentially banned in new cars since Jan 2017, so Mercedes has been forced to use R1234yf since then. However, this is just a stop-gap until they've perfected their CO2 based A/C system, which is already in use on the S-Class and E-Class cars.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Its getting hard to find.We had 60 lbs of R12 at the beginning of Summer. Its all gone as of today. And the hot season isn't here yet. There are a few cars that can't be retrofitted to R134a and those people are going to be hurting this summer.
Where do you normally get your R12?
Its getting hard to find.We had 60 lbs of R12 at the beginning of Summer. Its all gone as of today. And the hot season isn't here yet. There are a few cars that can't be retrofitted to R134a and those people are going to be hurting this summer.
Where do you normally get your R12?
Originally Posted By: exranger06
However, this is just a stop-gap until they've perfected their CO2 based A/C system, which is already in use on the S-Class and E-Class cars.
I think Denso was also pushing for CO2 as a refrigerant as well. Most of the automakers decided to go with HF-1234yf. Doesn't need too many drastic changes on the production line.
However, this is just a stop-gap until they've perfected their CO2 based A/C system, which is already in use on the S-Class and E-Class cars.
I think Denso was also pushing for CO2 as a refrigerant as well. Most of the automakers decided to go with HF-1234yf. Doesn't need too many drastic changes on the production line.
Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
You know , that is kind of odd . Someone is worried about a pound or three of propane . While they have 10 - 20 gallons ( at what , say 6 pounds per gallon ? ) of gasoline on board ?
I realize it is not perfect , but some / most people have no common sense .
I've always said gasoline is the most dangerous liquid people can buy without a certification/license.
And the funny part is that the new R-12 replacement Chemours is marketing in the ROW has about 2% of hydrocarbon in the form of butane and n-pentane on the SDS and is rated non-flammable per ASHRAE. In the event of a collision, most of it will flash off from a severed AC system in seconds.
https://www.chemours.com/Refrigerants/en_US/products/Freon/Freon-MO49Plus.html
What is ROW ?
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
You know , that is kind of odd . Someone is worried about a pound or three of propane . While they have 10 - 20 gallons ( at what , say 6 pounds per gallon ? ) of gasoline on board ?
I realize it is not perfect , but some / most people have no common sense .
I've always said gasoline is the most dangerous liquid people can buy without a certification/license.
And the funny part is that the new R-12 replacement Chemours is marketing in the ROW has about 2% of hydrocarbon in the form of butane and n-pentane on the SDS and is rated non-flammable per ASHRAE. In the event of a collision, most of it will flash off from a severed AC system in seconds.
https://www.chemours.com/Refrigerants/en_US/products/Freon/Freon-MO49Plus.html
What is ROW ?
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
What is ROW ?
Rest Of (the) World
What is ROW ?
Rest Of (the) World
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: exranger06
However, this is just a stop-gap until they've perfected their CO2 based A/C system, which is already in use on the S-Class and E-Class cars.
I think Denso was also pushing for CO2 as a refrigerant as well. Most of the automakers decided to go with HF-1234yf. Doesn't need too many drastic changes on the production line.
Not the biggest fan of co2 as a refrigerant, but at least if they ban that, they'll have to ban people too...
Originally Posted By: exranger06
However, this is just a stop-gap until they've perfected their CO2 based A/C system, which is already in use on the S-Class and E-Class cars.
I think Denso was also pushing for CO2 as a refrigerant as well. Most of the automakers decided to go with HF-1234yf. Doesn't need too many drastic changes on the production line.
Not the biggest fan of co2 as a refrigerant, but at least if they ban that, they'll have to ban people too...
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