Warm/Hot Start-Up Tick

[Phishin]

I'm talking about 1990 Chevy K1500 in my sig.

In the morning when I start the truck up for work, there is never any tick.

When it's hot out on my lunch break....it ticks at start up. If it's cold, no tick.

Sometimes when I let it idle for a bit (once its fully warmed up) there will be tick. But the tick immediately goes away with a gentle increase in RPM's.

So, basically, what I can deduce is: When the engine is hot/warm, the thinner oil is causing a tick.

So my question is, what would cause this? If thinner oil flows better, why am I ticking? Or maybe the thinner oil doesn't have sufficient pressure behind it to get to the last lifter on the passenger side? Just a guess. The tick appears to come from the passenger side of the engine.

The good news is, the tick goes away at start up in about 30 seconds of idling.

 

[jsnyder49090]

Does it use any oil i see your using 10w40 my 95 specs for 10w30 and i heard 5w30 would probably be better.Have you tried any cleaners or high detergent oil?

 

[Phishin]

Yes, it burns oil. Not much when driving around town. A quart every 1200 miles or so.

But it burns it fast when under heavy loads....like hauling a boat on the highway. It's burned a quart in 200 miles before going 75mph pulling a heavy 20' fiberglass boat.

I've been running tons of cleaners through it the last 10k miles. It's getting clean.

She started ticking about 2 months ago. Like I said, only on warm/hot start ups or extended idling.

What could be worn out/faulty in this old truck motor that would cause thinner, hot oil to cause a tick?

 

[dave1251]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2679692&page=1

 

[jsnyder49090]

Probably a weak lifter or maybe even a little wear on the cam.If you have tried to clean it i wouldnt worry about it and seems like youve done that with the old threads.I would try HDEO or HM oil.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: Phishin

So, basically, what I can deduce is: When the engine is hot/warm, the thinner oil is causing a tick.


It's not that thin oil is causing the tick so much as thick oil is masking it. Do a valve adjustment. If that's not going to happen, just switch to 20W-50 to cover up the noise better until you end up wiping the cam. You'll know when the cam is gone by the misfiring.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: jsnyder49090
Probably a weak lifter or maybe even a little wear on the cam.If you have tried to clean it i wouldnt worry about it and seems like youve done that with the old threads.I would try HDEO or HM oil.


^^^ THIS^^^

How much RPM increase is necessary to stop the noise? Could well be oil pressure related, a thicker oil would increase hot pressure... A thicker oil will rarely decrease valve train noise that are the result of wear and or increased clearances...

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
How much RPM increase is necessary to stop the noise? Could well be oil pressure related, a thicker oil would increase hot pressure... A thicker oil will rarely decrease valve train noise that are the result of wear and or increased clearances...


Just a little increase in RPM's....maybe 500-700 RPM's for 5 seconds, and the rattle/clatter is gone.

If a thicker oil rarely decreases valve train noise, what do you think it is? Why would cold oil show no tick and why would hot oil cause it to tick at idle?

What kind of physical problem could I have with this old 350TBI that could cause such an observance?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[LeakySeals]

Have any extra Kreen? Give it a shot, will answer if there is a blockage somewhere.

 

[Astro14]

Phishin - Haven't we been over this before in your previous thread?

Diagnosing a "tick" on the internet is an imprecise science at best...Best guess, it's either excess clearance in the valve train (worn cam, lifter or rocker) or it's a lifter that's either worn out or been plugged by all the gunk you've had circulating in that engine.

This tick, in your words, is based on outside air temperature...which I think is a red herring...and oil temp is not the same as engine temp...so "warmed up" on the coolant gauge does not mean that your oil is yet warmed. It's the RPM increase that's pumping up a failing lifter

Did you try adjusting the rockers, as was suggested in the previous thread?

They're hydraulic lifters - if they get worn out (excess internal clearance) or if they get plugged up (dissolved sludge circulating around in the kreen, mmo and ATF you've been running), then they can't adjust the valve train clearance hydraulically and they tick. Solution in both of those cases is a new lifter(s)...or you could throw some more chemicals in your oil and hope for the best...

But hope isn't a reliable repair method...

 

[LeakySeals]

I did not know he was running Kreen in this one too.

 

[Astro14]

I think he's tried everything in the past 10K...

But, the odd part is his expectation that there is a chemical cure on a 22 year old, 170,000 mile truck with poor maintenance history...sometimes, old stuff just wears out and needs to be replaced...

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Phishin - Haven't we been over this before in your previous thread?

Diagnosing a "tick" on the internet is an imprecise science at best...Best guess, it's either excess clearance in the valve train (worn cam, lifter or rocker) or it's a lifter that's either worn out or been plugged by all the gunk you've had circulating in that engine.

This tick, in your words, is based on outside air temperature...which I think is a red herring...and oil temp is not the same as engine temp...so "warmed up" on the coolant gauge does not mean that your oil is yet warmed. It's the RPM increase that's pumping up a failing lifter

Did you try adjusting the rockers, as was suggested in the previous thread?

They're hydraulic lifters - if they get worn out (excess internal clearance) or if they get plugged up (dissolved sludge circulating around in the kreen, mmo and ATF you've been running)


Dang Astro. You sure come off abrasive. Not sure why you are always so hostile on here.

But I ain't taking the bait.

And you are COMPLETELY wrong about the back that I put Kreen in here. And most importantly, this truck has flat tappet lifters, not hydraulic (as it was clarified in an earlier post/thread....LOL!!)

No, I haven't tried to adjust the lifter yet. Because I was wondering with these symptoms, why it would tick if slightly warm/warm/hot vs. dead cold from over night sitting. I thought that phenomenon might be poiting directly to the source of the problem.

I never said it was based on air temp. But more on oil temp. After sitting all night, for sure the oil is thicker than it is after me running the truck to work (fully warmed up), parking it on black asphalt, and the truck sitting in 100 degree weather and starting it up on my lunch break.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: TFB1
How much RPM increase is necessary to stop the noise? Could well be oil pressure related, a thicker oil would increase hot pressure... A thicker oil will rarely decrease valve train noise that are the result of wear and or increased clearances...


Just a little increase in RPM's....maybe 500-700 RPM's for 5 seconds, and the rattle/clatter is gone.

If a thicker oil rarely decreases valve train noise, what do you think it is? Why would cold oil show no tick and why would hot oil cause it to tick at idle?

What kind of physical problem could I have with this old 350TBI that could cause such an observance?

Thanks in advance!!


I guess my post is a bit confusing, sorry 'bout that...

In a hydraulic valve lifter that has internal wear, yes the thicker oil can help but it's most likely the result of higher oil pressure that restores function... This is likely what stops the tap when revs increase, oil pressure is up, restoring proper lifter action... A thick oil would possibly increase pressure enough till the problem is not noticeable... In a case where the cam, push rod, rocker arm or maybe valve tip is worn and the hydraulic lifter has reached it's max travel, no oil is going to make a appreciable difference(this is the usual issue)...

Thicker oil should help in your case... I'd just go with a HEDO and forget any more treatments...

I've seen engines that the problem was a worn oil pump and the valves clattered at hot idle due to low pressure... Used to be a common problem on V6 Buick engines when the oil pump housing would wear causing excessive clearances...

If the oil pan is fairly easy to remove, a new high volume oil pump may buy you some time...

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Phishin - Haven't we been over this before in your previous thread?

Diagnosing a "tick" on the internet is an imprecise science at best...Best guess, it's either excess clearance in the valve train (worn cam, lifter or rocker) or it's a lifter that's either worn out or been plugged by all the gunk you've had circulating in that engine.

This tick, in your words, is based on outside air temperature...which I think is a red herring...and oil temp is not the same as engine temp...so "warmed up" on the coolant gauge does not mean that your oil is yet warmed. It's the RPM increase that's pumping up a failing lifter

Did you try adjusting the rockers, as was suggested in the previous thread?

They're hydraulic lifters - if they get worn out (excess internal clearance) or if they get plugged up (dissolved sludge circulating around in the kreen, mmo and ATF you've been running)


Dang Astro. You sure come off abrasive. Not sure why you are always so hostile on here.

But I ain't taking the bait.

And you are COMPLETELY wrong about the back that I put Kreen in here. And most importantly, this truck has flat tappet lifters, not hydraulic (as it was clarified in an earlier post/thread....LOL!!)

No, I haven't tried to adjust the lifter yet. Because I was wondering with these symptoms, why it would tick if slightly warm/warm/hot vs. dead cold from over night sitting. I thought that phenomenon might be poiting directly to the source of the problem.

I never said it was based on air temp. But more on oil temp. After sitting all night, for sure the oil is thicker than it is after me running the truck to work (fully warmed up), parking it on black asphalt, and the truck sitting in 100 degree weather and starting it up on my lunch break.


Phishin - I have been trying to help, if you want to criticize my tone...well...that's your business...but I don't understand why you ask a question...and then ignore the answers...and ask the question again. Sorry I didn't accurately remember the details of all the stuff you've put in the truck...but whether you used Kreen or not, there was what, Seafoam? ATF? All kinds of stuff...

Despite the long explanation of outside air temp and lunch conditions, you haven't mentioned the one critical parameter: OIL PRESSURE. What is the oil pressure when this thing ticks? If it's right on the low end, that could be the problem right there: low pressure isn't enough to pump up failing hydraulic lifters.

And, let's be clear on this one point: you have hydraulic lifters.

Period.

They are not roller, but the standard SBC hydraulic flat tappet lifters. Flat tappet IS hydraulic, except in rare instances (like some Hi-Po cars in the 60s, which were solid, flat tappet lifeters)

So, they adjust for valve train wear by an internal plunger and spring that take up the clearance (lash) using oil pressure.

Your truck ticks because it has too much lash.

That comes from a: wear or b: failed lifter.

Time to stop typing and turn some wrenches to figure out which it is...

 

[Astro14]

There is one other potential cause of ticking at idle that goes away as the engine warms: manifold gasket failing. As the MANIFOLD warms (not oil, not engine...and it would warm faster with increased RPM), the slight gap closes up and the tick goes away.

Are you able to hear the difference betweeen a manifold/exhaust tick or lifter tick? Do you have a friend with a stethoscope?

 

[Phishin]

Okay Astro. Thanks for the explanation. That helps alot. I guess I was confused about the lifter type as well. Thank you.

The truck just got a new intake manifold gasket 5k miles ago.

Should someone be able to tell which lifter it is with a stethoscope? Can you differentiate which lifter it is with a stethoscope? Can you simply remove the valve cover and hold the scope real close to the lifter and be able to tell which one is the source of the tick? I guess that's what I really want to know.

Thanks.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Okay Astro. Thanks for the explanation. That helps alot. I guess I was confused about the lifter type as well. Thank you.

The truck just got a new intake manifold gasket 5k miles ago.

Should someone be able to tell which lifter it is with a stethoscope? Can you differentiate which lifter it is with a stethoscope? Can you simply remove the valve cover and hold the scope real close to the lifter and be able to tell which one is the source of the tick? I guess that's what I really want to know.

Thanks.


He's talking about an exhaust manifold gasket.

 

[Astro14]

Stethoscope would help you narrow down the manifold leak location (if it is one...). Lifter tick originates deep inside the V of the engine...stethoscope wouldn't help narrow that down, much, except to tell you right bank or left.

If it's lifters, then I would pull the valve cover with the tick.

I sold my last SBC-powered car 19 years ago...so, I don't remember the lifter adjustment procedure any more...but the failed lifter will likely have less pre-load on the pushrod, so you may be able to turn that pushrod easily, or feel the clearance problem before you start trying to adjust them...

You might also find that one or more of the rockers is worn too...those will be fairly easy to see as well, and super easy to replace...they can fall victim to poor lubrication as well, the oil goes up the pushrod from the lifter and lubricates the rocker arm and valve stem...

I would love to know what the lifter valley looked like when that intake mainfold was done...the oil hole in the lifter is small, like .050"...so it's easily plugged...once plugged, you get a tick (excess lash) then the lifter starts wearing...clear the hole, then the lifter starts working again, but takes more pressure to do so...

So, as was stated earlier, you might be able to quiet it down with a heavier oil (higher warm viscosity) or with a better pump (if the pressure is marginal)...or it might be time to do the cam and lifter set on this engine...they can be the "canary in the coal mine) for engine oil problems...the first thing to go...

You can do just the individual lifter if only one has failed...though there is a school of thought that the it will wear poorly on the cam, I wouldn't worry about it in your case. The complete cam and lifter set for this are cheap, readily available, and fairly easy to install...the only real hard part is that the condensor has to come out with the radiator to get room to slide the cam out of the block

 

[LeakySeals]

Give Rotella T6 5w40 a try. Should silence the beast.