In short, the European ACEA rated oils are more concerned with engine protection and longer drains than API oils, which are more geared to fuel mileage and emission system protection.
Ed
Ed
Viscosity Index
- Thread starter cmills
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Let me explain part of the issue I am trying to resolve. I have a 2011 4runner with the 1GR-FE 4.0 V-6 that calls for 0W-20, but in the manual it says that a higher viscosity oil may be better when used at high speeds or under extreme conditions. It does not say what to use though, so I emailed toyota of Australia and they sent me a copy of 2 pages from the owners manual of a 2009 Prado. The Prado uses the same engine as my 4Runner with the exception of depending on if it was an early 09 it would have the regular VVT-i system versus the Dual VVT-i that the later 2009 models and my 4runner has.(not sure if the oil recommendations changed because of the Dual VVT-i or not) Their manual says 5w30 or 10W-30 SL energy conserving, SM energy conserving or ILSAC multigrade engine oil. Then it says 15w40 or 20W-50 SL or SM multigrade engine oil.
I would think that if those grades can work in the same engine over there they would be ok in my 4Runner here, right?
I'm not sure what to use because my manual just says a higher viscosity oil and does not specify and viscosity. This is why I was looking at the GC 0W-30 and the Mobil 0W-40 because they both seem to be very well respected oils according to most.
I would like to be using something heavier than the 0W-20 since I'll be towing a trailer some, but I'm kind of confused on what route to go.
I would think that if those grades can work in the same engine over there they would be ok in my 4Runner here, right?
I'm not sure what to use because my manual just says a higher viscosity oil and does not specify and viscosity. This is why I was looking at the GC 0W-30 and the Mobil 0W-40 because they both seem to be very well respected oils according to most.
I would like to be using something heavier than the 0W-20 since I'll be towing a trailer some, but I'm kind of confused on what route to go.
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I would go with a 0w30 at the very least. Preferably a 0w40.
Thanks, from the way it is worded, SL energy conserving, SM energy conserving or ILSAC multigrade engine oil, does it mean it has to meet both the SL and SM or either. Because I noticed that the GC meets SL but not SM snd that the Mobil 0W-40 does meet the SM specs which I means it had to meet the SL specs which were before the SM, is this correct?
I also noticed that the GC meets GL-2 and GL-3 specs not the GL-4 and GL-5 of some of the other oils and I didn't see any GL specs for the Mobil on their spec sheet. Don't these have to do with the emission system compatibility? My manual for my 4Runner doesn't say anything about the SM or SL or GL for that matter just ILSAC multigrade engine oil 0W-20 and the Prado manual does not mention the GL specs either. Could it be that if it meets the SM or SL specs that it in turn meets some of the GL specs also?
Thanks for the continued help
I also noticed that the GC meets GL-2 and GL-3 specs not the GL-4 and GL-5 of some of the other oils and I didn't see any GL specs for the Mobil on their spec sheet. Don't these have to do with the emission system compatibility? My manual for my 4Runner doesn't say anything about the SM or SL or GL for that matter just ILSAC multigrade engine oil 0W-20 and the Prado manual does not mention the GL specs either. Could it be that if it meets the SM or SL specs that it in turn meets some of the GL specs also?
Thanks for the continued help
Ok, I was doing some more searching and it seems that the GC 0W-30 and the Mobil 0W-40 exceed the current Zinc/Phosphorus limits (otherwise they would be rated GF-4 or GF-5). I know this is good for wear, but should I look at something else instead to help protect the catalytic converters?
Like I said before my manual doesn't specify a GF-4 or GF-5 oil, but I suppose it doesn't need too because all 0W-20 oils probably meet that spec.
Like I said before my manual doesn't specify a GF-4 or GF-5 oil, but I suppose it doesn't need too because all 0W-20 oils probably meet that spec.
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Do you think Amsoil doubled the 90 cycles to 180 cycles, becasue at 90 cycles, the other comparison oils were just as good as the Amsoil product?
Steve
Steve
From what I have found it seems that the Mobil 5w30 is about the heaviest xW-30 I can find that meets the GL-4 specs which I believe limits the Zinc and Phosphorus to around 800 ppm. I would like to use a xW-40 but can't seem to find one that meets the GL-4 spec.
I'm not sure how much extra Zinc and Phosphorus is in the Mobil 0W-40 and GC 0W-30, but do you think it is enough to cause catalytic converter problems or any other emission system problems?
I'm not sure how much extra Zinc and Phosphorus is in the Mobil 0W-40 and GC 0W-30, but do you think it is enough to cause catalytic converter problems or any other emission system problems?
Originally Posted By: cmills
From what I have found it seems that the Mobil 5w30 is about the heaviest xW-30 I can find that meets the GL-4 specs which I believe limits the Zinc and Phosphorus to around 800 ppm. I would like to use a xW-40 but can't seem to find one that meets the GL-4 spec.
I'm not sure how much extra Zinc and Phosphorus is in the Mobil 0W-40 and GC 0W-30, but do you think it is enough to cause catalytic converter problems or any other emission system problems?
Zinc and Phosphorous can hurt the cats, but it requires the engine to burn the oil to get to the cats. If the engine is tight and is not using any oil then no problems. Euro automakers like the extra protection of higher ZDDP, but it may not be necessary.
In theory a modern roller tappet cam engine shouldn't need the higher ZDDP. I would just go with a slightly higher viscosity like 5w30 instead of 5w-20 and not worry about ZDDP levels.
From what I have found it seems that the Mobil 5w30 is about the heaviest xW-30 I can find that meets the GL-4 specs which I believe limits the Zinc and Phosphorus to around 800 ppm. I would like to use a xW-40 but can't seem to find one that meets the GL-4 spec.
I'm not sure how much extra Zinc and Phosphorus is in the Mobil 0W-40 and GC 0W-30, but do you think it is enough to cause catalytic converter problems or any other emission system problems?
Zinc and Phosphorous can hurt the cats, but it requires the engine to burn the oil to get to the cats. If the engine is tight and is not using any oil then no problems. Euro automakers like the extra protection of higher ZDDP, but it may not be necessary.
In theory a modern roller tappet cam engine shouldn't need the higher ZDDP. I would just go with a slightly higher viscosity like 5w30 instead of 5w-20 and not worry about ZDDP levels.
Originally Posted By: 30valve
Originally Posted By: cmills
From what I have found it seems that the Mobil 5w30 is about the heaviest xW-30 I can find that meets the GL-4 specs which I believe limits the Zinc and Phosphorus to around 800 ppm. I would like to use a xW-40 but can't seem to find one that meets the GL-4 spec.
I'm not sure how much extra Zinc and Phosphorus is in the Mobil 0W-40 and GC 0W-30, but do you think it is enough to cause catalytic converter problems or any other emission system problems?
Zinc and Phosphorous can hurt the cats, but it requires the engine to burn the oil to get to the cats. If the engine is tight and is not using any oil then no problems. Euro automakers like the extra protection of higher ZDDP, but it may not be necessary.
In theory a modern roller tappet cam engine shouldn't need the higher ZDDP. I would just go with a slightly higher viscosity like 5w30 instead of 5w-20 and not worry about ZDDP levels.
I thought the same thing about a car that is not burning oil should not have an issue, but I had a 2000 Nissan Altima that I used Cenpeco S-3 10W-30 diesel oil which has high levels of Zinc and phosphorus. When the car had 150,000 miles on it catalytic converter started to get restricted. I had been using the oil for 100,000 miles. I was told that even if you can't tell by the dipstick, all cars use a very small amount of oil.
I have also been heard the same thing about the roller tappet cams, which does make sense. I was just wanting to use xW-40 just because it is a little heavier oil not because of the ZDDP.
But I haven't been able to find one that meets the GL-4 or GL-5 spec.
Originally Posted By: cmills
From what I have found it seems that the Mobil 5w30 is about the heaviest xW-30 I can find that meets the GL-4 specs which I believe limits the Zinc and Phosphorus to around 800 ppm. I would like to use a xW-40 but can't seem to find one that meets the GL-4 spec.
I'm not sure how much extra Zinc and Phosphorus is in the Mobil 0W-40 and GC 0W-30, but do you think it is enough to cause catalytic converter problems or any other emission system problems?
Zinc and Phosphorous can hurt the cats, but it requires the engine to burn the oil to get to the cats. If the engine is tight and is not using any oil then no problems. Euro automakers like the extra protection of higher ZDDP, but it may not be necessary.
In theory a modern roller tappet cam engine shouldn't need the higher ZDDP. I would just go with a slightly higher viscosity like 5w30 instead of 5w-20 and not worry about ZDDP levels.
I thought the same thing about a car that is not burning oil should not have an issue, but I had a 2000 Nissan Altima that I used Cenpeco S-3 10W-30 diesel oil which has high levels of Zinc and phosphorus. When the car had 150,000 miles on it catalytic converter started to get restricted. I had been using the oil for 100,000 miles. I was told that even if you can't tell by the dipstick, all cars use a very small amount of oil.
I have also been heard the same thing about the roller tappet cams, which does make sense. I was just wanting to use xW-40 just because it is a little heavier oil not because of the ZDDP.
But I haven't been able to find one that meets the GL-4 or GL-5 spec.
Sorry I keep putting GL instead of GF.
Originally Posted By: unDummy
Don't be confused. You can just about use any weight you want.
The only issue is that you'll lose some MPG as you go thicker!
How heavy is the trailer? and your weather patterns or location?
I'm in Indiana, so it gets below 0*F in the winter and up in the 90's*F in the summer, once in a great while 100*F. The trailer would weigh anywhere from 2500 to 4500 lbs, the 4Runner is rated for up to 5000 lbs.
Don't be confused. You can just about use any weight you want.
The only issue is that you'll lose some MPG as you go thicker!
How heavy is the trailer? and your weather patterns or location?
I'm in Indiana, so it gets below 0*F in the winter and up in the 90's*F in the summer, once in a great while 100*F. The trailer would weigh anywhere from 2500 to 4500 lbs, the 4Runner is rated for up to 5000 lbs.
Although I would still like to go with a xW-40, I can't seem to find one that is at least GF-4 rated. Although maybes there is not enough extra ZDDP in it to cause any Catalytic convertor problems anyway, I just get paranoid about things.
I guess I've narrowed it down between PU 5w30, Castrol Edge 5w30, Mobil 1 5w30, Mobil 1 0W-30, or Mobil 1 EP 5w30.
1: The Mobil 1 5w30 and Mobil 1 5w30 EP show to be a little heavier when up to temp than the Mobil 1 0W-30, would that make them better than the 0W-30, as far as wear is concerned?
2: Does the Mobil 1 EP 5w30 have any advantages over the Mobil 1 5w30 and 0W-30 other than longer a OCI?
3: I have also read that some people have talked about having some oil consumption with Mobil 1, is this rare, and is there a reason for it.
4: As far as I can see from my research these are all very good oils, is there really any advantage to using any of these oils over the other as far as wear is concerned, or should I just buy whatever I can get the best buy on?
I guess I've narrowed it down between PU 5w30, Castrol Edge 5w30, Mobil 1 5w30, Mobil 1 0W-30, or Mobil 1 EP 5w30.
1: The Mobil 1 5w30 and Mobil 1 5w30 EP show to be a little heavier when up to temp than the Mobil 1 0W-30, would that make them better than the 0W-30, as far as wear is concerned?
2: Does the Mobil 1 EP 5w30 have any advantages over the Mobil 1 5w30 and 0W-30 other than longer a OCI?
3: I have also read that some people have talked about having some oil consumption with Mobil 1, is this rare, and is there a reason for it.
4: As far as I can see from my research these are all very good oils, is there really any advantage to using any of these oils over the other as far as wear is concerned, or should I just buy whatever I can get the best buy on?
Since you're in Indiana, and not towing heavy loads, a 5w30 should do just fine year-round. If you're concerned about it, a heavy 30 like German Castrol (Syntec 0w30 European Formula) would be good. It's only about 2.5% away from being a 40-weight anyway.
If you're not going to go to extended OCI's, don't spend the extra dollars on M1 EP.
I would rank Mobil 1 first, Pennzoil second, and Castrol Edge 3rd out of the oils you listed. In general, Castrol doesn't put enough useful information on their tech sheets for me to be comfortable pouring them into my engines.
If you're not going to go to extended OCI's, don't spend the extra dollars on M1 EP.
I would rank Mobil 1 first, Pennzoil second, and Castrol Edge 3rd out of the oils you listed. In general, Castrol doesn't put enough useful information on their tech sheets for me to be comfortable pouring them into my engines.
Originally Posted By: cmills
1: The Mobil 1 5w30 and Mobil 1 5w30 EP show to be a little heavier when up to temp than the Mobil 1 0W-30, would that make them better than the 0W-30, as far as wear is concerned??
Not really. The GC 0W-30 is the only 30 weight that I know of that's significantly "heavier" than the others. As far as the viscosity affecting wear, any of the xW-30 oils should be near equivalent I'd think.
Originally Posted By: cmills
2: Does the Mobil 1 EP 5w30 have any advantages over the Mobil 1 5w30 and 0W-30 other than longer a OCI?
I don't think so. Check out the Mobil 1 HM 5w30 (High Mileage). I think all of M1's HM oils are SL-rated instead of SM/SN. Some here would prefer those for their earlier style additive packages over the latest API specs. I use Mobil 1 HM 10W-30 in my small mower engines just because it's SL-rated.
Originally Posted By: cmills
4: As far as I can see from my research these are all very good oils, is there really any advantage to using any of these oils over the other as far as wear is concerned, or should I just buy whatever I can get the best buy on?
That would be my strategy: whatever you can get on sale. In fact, I'd try a number of them and then decide which one you like the best. Sometimes, different oil will run differently in different engines. You may find one to be quieter or smoother over the other choices. Be sure you're using the same type of filter each time to rule out that variable when you're comparing different oil.
1: The Mobil 1 5w30 and Mobil 1 5w30 EP show to be a little heavier when up to temp than the Mobil 1 0W-30, would that make them better than the 0W-30, as far as wear is concerned??
Not really. The GC 0W-30 is the only 30 weight that I know of that's significantly "heavier" than the others. As far as the viscosity affecting wear, any of the xW-30 oils should be near equivalent I'd think.
Originally Posted By: cmills
2: Does the Mobil 1 EP 5w30 have any advantages over the Mobil 1 5w30 and 0W-30 other than longer a OCI?
I don't think so. Check out the Mobil 1 HM 5w30 (High Mileage). I think all of M1's HM oils are SL-rated instead of SM/SN. Some here would prefer those for their earlier style additive packages over the latest API specs. I use Mobil 1 HM 10W-30 in my small mower engines just because it's SL-rated.
Originally Posted By: cmills
4: As far as I can see from my research these are all very good oils, is there really any advantage to using any of these oils over the other as far as wear is concerned, or should I just buy whatever I can get the best buy on?
That would be my strategy: whatever you can get on sale. In fact, I'd try a number of them and then decide which one you like the best. Sometimes, different oil will run differently in different engines. You may find one to be quieter or smoother over the other choices. Be sure you're using the same type of filter each time to rule out that variable when you're comparing different oil.
Thanks guys, I was thinking about using the GC, but was worried about the extra ZDDP affecting the catalytic convertor and maybe other parts of the emissions system.
I was thinking about running the Mobil 1 0W-40 but some were saying (and going by UOA) it has around 1000 ppm of zinc and Phosphorus.
With this only being 200-300 ppm than the limit, is it going to have any negative affect on the catalytic convertor or the emissions system anyway?
And have the catalytic convertors or parts of emissions system changed since the last spec allowing more zinc and phosphorus, because I don't really remember hearing about a bunch of problems then anyhow?
I was thinking about running the Mobil 1 0W-40 but some were saying (and going by UOA) it has around 1000 ppm of zinc and Phosphorus.
With this only being 200-300 ppm than the limit, is it going to have any negative affect on the catalytic convertor or the emissions system anyway?
And have the catalytic convertors or parts of emissions system changed since the last spec allowing more zinc and phosphorus, because I don't really remember hearing about a bunch of problems then anyhow?
cmills, you're way over thinking this.
Forget about ZDDP it's a non issue.
The only technical way of knowing if the OEM 0W-20 is too light when towing a trailer in the summer is by installing an oil pressure gauge and /or oil temperature gauge. Unless you are seeing oil temps significantly higher than normal then you don't have to run an oil heavier than the OEM 0W-20.
Since you don't likely have an oil gauge, running a slightly heavier oil is all the extra safety margin you'll need.
One thing you haven't considered is simply running a heavier 20wt oil. The Toyota 0W-20 is an VERY light oil, the lightest SM oil you can buy. HTHS vis is no more than 2.4cP in service. So you could run a heavier 0W-20 from RL, RLI, or Amsoil but their expensive oils. A less expensive option would be to go with a 5W-20 like PU (HTHS 2.7cP) or M1 (HTHS 2.77cP).
The next step up the viscosity ladder would be a light 30wt and that's as heavy as you'll ever need to go.
You're already familiar with M1 0W-30 and with it's VI of 180 and you won't find anything better. You could go with any OTC 5w30 and that would serve you fine during the summer, but if you want to stick with the premise of your post and use a high VI oil M1 0W-30 is your best choice.
Forget about GC 0W-30 amd M1 0W-40 as these are way heavier than necessary choices.
Forget about ZDDP it's a non issue.
The only technical way of knowing if the OEM 0W-20 is too light when towing a trailer in the summer is by installing an oil pressure gauge and /or oil temperature gauge. Unless you are seeing oil temps significantly higher than normal then you don't have to run an oil heavier than the OEM 0W-20.
Since you don't likely have an oil gauge, running a slightly heavier oil is all the extra safety margin you'll need.
One thing you haven't considered is simply running a heavier 20wt oil. The Toyota 0W-20 is an VERY light oil, the lightest SM oil you can buy. HTHS vis is no more than 2.4cP in service. So you could run a heavier 0W-20 from RL, RLI, or Amsoil but their expensive oils. A less expensive option would be to go with a 5W-20 like PU (HTHS 2.7cP) or M1 (HTHS 2.77cP).
The next step up the viscosity ladder would be a light 30wt and that's as heavy as you'll ever need to go.
You're already familiar with M1 0W-30 and with it's VI of 180 and you won't find anything better. You could go with any OTC 5w30 and that would serve you fine during the summer, but if you want to stick with the premise of your post and use a high VI oil M1 0W-30 is your best choice.
Forget about GC 0W-30 amd M1 0W-40 as these are way heavier than necessary choices.
Seems like going xw40 is very much overkill for an engine that says normally you'd use xw20...especially considering the engine is stock. I'd just use a good quality 0w20. Castrol Edge, Redline, Amsoil, M1 come to mind. Edge 5w30 comes to mind as a very thin xw30 option.
I agree with using something like a 0w-20 during the winter and 0w-30 in the summer. I think the OP will have no problems that way. 2 oil changes a year and call it a day.
I actually stopped and got some PU 5w30 and Mobil 5w30 because I wasn't sure what I wanted. from what everyone says they are both good, I did see that the Mobil is little heavier when up to temp so maybe I'll go that way.
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