Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Shannow
It's not up to anyone to be able to prove that Rat's or Gokhan's "science" is worthless.
It's up to the proponents of this "science" to prove that their models and theories are valid, repeatable, and representative of actual behaviour.
If people don't believe someone's claim based on the proponent's info/data, then they must have a reason in their mind to not believe it, and should have some kind of technical info/data that debunks the proponent's claims. If they don't have anything to prove it's inaccurate, then they are just blowing smoke.
That's not how science works, and you as an engineer should understand that...
I've black swanned Gokhan before, on the BOQI...I demonstrated that the mobil blend guide, with a raft of different viscosities gave a different "Base Oil Quality", to the tune of 25%, with base oils that were all part of the same PAO family...
Gokhan countered that the mobil blend guide was essentially advertising material, and not a recipe book...now it's the basis of the new super computer...
Next effort was the BOQI2, which then mashed HTHS (of the finished product) with the BOQI of item 1, and was the umber mashing validated by the mobil blend guide, which is now infallible...
So I know (from reading the patent on which BOQI was based) that it's an incorrect application of the technique...only to be countered with an argument identical to yours, asking me to show my own calculation of base oil quality, or my statements regarding his version hold no merit.
Understanding a theory to be most probably flawed does NOT require you to have a competing theory....especially when it comes to divining the constituents of an over the counter engine oil from the manufacturer's data sheet.
Now get to this one...the opening statement was that the theory was based on the VII having no effect at high shear rates...a statement that is patently wrong...now the spreadsheet PROVES that it does....
Well, you did exactly what I said someone should do (in red above) if they don't believe someone's claims - you came up with info and reasons to show why you don't believe the claims. You dug into it and tried to show where the model or equations are lacking or wrong. At some level the development of science does work that way ... there are scientists/engineers/physicists that challenge other's theories and studies all the time, and come up with their own theories, models, analysis and tests. There is also science that is "updated" as time and technology progresses (better analysis models, better testing methods, etc).
Originally Posted by Shannow
I'm a little disappointed in you as an engineer if you give this, and RAT credence because others haven't built a basestock calculator or valvetrain wear simulator (with accuracy to 8 decimal places)...seriously, that's the first big argument against RATs rankings...ASTM can only get to +/- 20%, while he can claim (and will not defend) 8 decimal places...making the vast majority of his results "the same"
Woah now ... I haven't gave anyone "credence" - don't know where you got that idea. If you recall the threads about Rat's oil ranking testing (you can go find and read them again), I'm the one who sat down and did error analysis (assuming his measurements were not very accurate or repeatable) to show that his data was basically useless unless you maybe divided the top 100 oils into a "good", "better" and "best" category (ie, just 3 categories instead of a #1 to a #100 ranging). Without knowing exactly how Rat does his testing and measurements, all one can do is assume some kind of error analysis on his data. Someone would have use a more "official" proven oil performance test program to prove Rat's data was correlating or not. And I'm not interested in trying to debunk Gokhan's model/equations ... I'm just saying has anyone clearly debunked his claims by showing info or flaws in his model and equations? You and others have gone down that road, but who's really right, wrong or in between at this point?