Tires and snow

[durallymax]

Originally Posted By: GMFan
I have never had snow tires on any vehicle...most people I know use A/S tires in winter and are fine in the snow. The key is in how you steer, brake and accelerate in snow. Just drive carefully and usually you will be fine. Another thing folks forget to consider is to simply NOT drive when it is blizzard conditions....not a good idea to run out to a movie during a blizzard or run to the store for milk. I stay home when I can during bad snow storms...it's just not worth the risk of being on the roads.

Also consider tire width....thin tires will generally do much much better in the snow than wide tires.


Ill agree that they are a luxury to some people, however the emergency response crews and many others have to get around during blizzards which is why snow tires are important.

I think many people miss the purpose of them. They think a snow tires purpose is to allow you to go faster through deeper snow. Their purpose is the opposite, to allow safe handling no matter what the circumstances. If you have never driven on snow tires you won't understand, but when ever you break traction, start to fishtale etc. all it takes is a lift off of the throttle and the vehicle straightens back out rapidly, all seasons cannot do that. I've driven plenty and they do not respond well to manuevers.

Remember, you can be the best driver in the world, but the person in the oncoming lane is probably doing their makeup, eating a burrito or reading the newspaper. Thats the advantage to having the tires needed for rapid evasive manuevers.

 

[TallPaul]

How do snow tires work with front wheel drive? Would look a bit strange to have big meaty treads on the front wheels only.

With all season tires if I break traction in my rear wheel drive I just let off the gas and it comes back in line. Is it a different story in front wheel drive? I really don't have any experience with front wheel drive.

 

[tdpark]

Tallpaul- things have changed- you have to put snows on all 4s because the traction is so good on the snow tires that if you put snows on the front in a FWD the rear end will be hard to control. I had a friend who cheaped out on a fwd and got fronts put on against the advice of the tire seller- first snow- he lost traction on the rear end and spun out at pretty much every corner he took at speed- the fronts stuck but the rear would just swing out.

I have snows on my FWD minivan on all 4s, this past christmas eve we had snow and ice- i was passing awd vehicles going up hills as they were spinning around. The people in SUVs glared at me like- how the heck are you getting up this hill.

I have snows to have better control and to get out of the way of the crazies who do not know how to drive- can't tell how many times it has helped me stop and get out of the way of out of control nuts.

 

[TMoto]

Brings back memories when I moved to CO from CA with my 2wd Chevy p/u with 15x10 P295/50R15 in back with 15x8 P265/50R15 in front. Looked cool but a really bad combo in the snow.

Never did get stuck though. I remember once I couldn't make it up over a bridge and had to take an alternate route home from work, and another time I had to drive out of my neighborhood in reverse so it acted like fwd. Sometimes I think newer cars with traction control and ABS are nice but younger drivers don't get the connection with their vehicle to understand what's going at the wheels. I think they get insulated from it and it leads to overconfidence.

Also, I've found the biggest issue isn't me being able to get around in bad weather, it's avoiding the knuckleheads out there.

Have a great but safe New Years everyone!!

 

[R2d2]

This. Mounted my Blizzak 70's today on steel rims.

 

[rslifkin]

My fairly new 255/65R16 Toyo Open Country A/Ts did pretty well coming home from Rochester last weekend with the first hour of the run on snowy highways. They did fine in the inch of slush we got on Christmas Eve as well. Only issue they had on the highway was a bit of tramlining when hitting slush piles, but that's expected with wider tires in the snow.

They're not very good on anything even slightly icy though, when we had a 1/2" of icy [censored] up in Rochester a couple weeks ago, the Jeep would stop fine, turn fine, but accelerating sucked in 2wd (and 4wd was inducing a bunch of understeer), and the tail didn't want to stay in line at all when it shifted or around turns.

It definitely needs snow tires at some point, which I should have a set of wheels for in the next week, and then I can pick up a set of snows for it (probably 245/70R16) either a little later this winter or in the fall.

 

[Indydriver]

Two of my vehicles have Blizzaks on them so I know what good winter performance is. What surprises me is how good our Toyota Sienna minivan with 10,000 miles on its OE Firestone 710s did. I was prepared to run for Blizzaks but I got around just fine in 8" of new snow. Part of the credit has to go to the minivan which doesn't have a particularly wide tire 235/60/17 and has all its weight on it's driven tires.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: oldhp
If you want to go in snow, you need snow tires. All season tires are not snow tires. Hercules Avalanche snow tires are very good snow tires. My 2wd 03 Dakota would go anywhere with those tires. Bought set for my 2012 Ram Express, night and day difference over the Goodyear Wrangler HP's.


Maybe YOU need snow tires but don't assume everyone does. I never have needed them nor will I and I see plenty of snow and ice during our NH winters. Maybe if I lived in Alaska or something where there was snow on the ground more months than not and every storm dumped a foot+ but other than that I just don't see the need for them. I see snow most years from late Nov - late March/early April, so again, I see plenty of snow to deal with.

You are right that All Season tires are not snow tires. No one said they were if you mean it in a literal sense. If you meant AS tires are not good in snow you are sadly mistaken( some are not some are ). However, a quality AS tire can perform very well in the snow and negate the need for an extra set of tires just for a few months during the winter.

Driver skill plays into it a lot too. I see people with snow tires who get stuck and slide all over the road all the time because they drive like idiots. They seem to think "I have snow tires so I can drive like a crazy fool like I do in the summer" just because of the tires. I drive on safe and sound regardless of conditons with my AS's because I drive appropriately for the conditions at hand. Those people I talk of above with the snow tire induced sense of security are the same type of folks who think because they have a 4WD or AWD vehicle they can still drive the same in the snow as they do on dry pavement. You still have to take it easy in bad weather even with snow tires or 4WD/AWD.

You also can't lump all AS tires together and think they all will perform like your Wrangler HP's( also don't forget that those HP's were 20" tires which = wide and that hurts snow and ice performance - narrow tires perform better ). On top of that, the Goodyear Wrangler HP is one of the most god awful tires ever made; period. They slip and slide on dry ground never mind on ice and in snow. On ice and in snow they are like driving on greased ball bearings.

Couldn't wait to take them off my Ram that came with them. I replaced them with some quality AS tires( Firestone Destination LE )and my Ram was a snow monster even in 2WD after I did despite the wide 20" size. You could have seen the same drastic improvement by selecting a quality AS over those awful HP's. Had the same Destination LE tires on a 4WD Silverado and hardly ever needed the 4WD. Actually, the LE's did betetr on the Silverado than the OE Goodyear Wrangler AT/S tires that came on it. My snow and ice performance IMPROVED going to an AS from an AT on the Silverado.

Lots of quality AS tires out there that do the job very well in bad weather. IF snow tires make you feel safer by all means use them. When you say you MUST have snow tires if you drive in snow you just are making a ridiculous statement.

 

[fdcg27]

I generally agree with you, in that decent A/S tires coupled with experience in winter driving will work just fine in snow conditions.
There are A/S tires that are very good in snow and will get you through some incredible depths just fine.
There are others that are utterly useless in snow.
Assuming that you're driving on decent A/S tires and you drive reasonably for conditions, you'll be just fine.
The OEM Dunlops on my new Accord seem pretty good on snow and ice, although not as good as dedicated winters.
Winter tires are very nice to have, but they are not a necessity.

 

[sciphi]

From what I've observed, there is a difference between truck all-season tires and car all-season tires. Some truck all-season tires have the mountain and snowflake deep-snow indicator on them. So those truly are an "all-season" tire that can be run year-round with no need for changing. Aside from the Nokian WR-G2, I do not recall a similar tire available in common passenger car sizes. Yeah, most passenger car tires have M+S on the sidewall, and some still do horribly in ice/snow, even the ones marked with the M+S. And, even the best car all-season tire will be out-performed in the snow by a car snow tire.

I believe comparing truck all-season tires, some of which are designed to go through deep snow, to a car all-season tire that is unknown how it will fare in winter, is not a fair comparison.

 

[fdcg27]

Some passenger car all seasons are really good in snow, while some are really horrible.
You'll know which you have the first time you drive your car in snow.
You can also use CR and TR as sources of information on winter performance when contemplating which new tires to buy.
There is no doubt that a set of dedicated winters are better in snow or on ice than the best all seasons.
There is also no doubt that on dry pavement, winters are worse than all seasons in every way.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: tdpark
Tallpaul- things have changed- you have to put snows on all 4s because the traction is so good on the snow tires that if you put snows on the front in a FWD the rear end will be hard to control.
Ah ha. Well I can't say that I have noticed any like that. I don't think the snow situation here in SE Michigan is such to require snow tires at least not in the city, other than 4-wheelers, plows, etc. I haven't run snows in 30 years.

 

[durallymax]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
How do snow tires work with front wheel drive? Would look a bit strange to have big meaty treads on the front wheels only.

With all season tires if I break traction in my rear wheel drive I just let off the gas and it comes back in line. Is it a different story in front wheel drive? I really don't have any experience with front wheel drive.


Have you looked at new snow tires in the past few years? They are not big and meaty anymore. Most snow tires now are geared towards ice traction. They look close to a summer performance directional tire but with a more horizontal V, open shoulder, ridiculous amounts of siping and compounds that remain very tacky in cold weather. Everything else aside the key things that make a good ice tire is a good compound and siping, big meaty blocks are for digging a hole, something you dont want to do in the snow because you'll wind up stuck, todays snow tires pack the snow down and get traction on the icy packed snow.

heres an example of a modern snow/ice tire. Many from the other competitors are similar in the fact that only a trained eye can notice when walking past the car.

http://www.michelinman.com/tire-selector/category/winter/x-ice-xi3/tire-details

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
From what I've observed, there is a difference between truck all-season tires and car all-season tires. Some truck all-season tires have the mountain and snowflake deep-snow indicator on them. So those truly are an "all-season" tire that can be run year-round with no need for changing. Aside from the Nokian WR-G2, I do not recall a similar tire available in common passenger car sizes. Yeah, most passenger car tires have M+S on the sidewall, and some still do horribly in ice/snow, even the ones marked with the M+S. And, even the best car all-season tire will be out-performed in the snow by a car snow tire.

I believe comparing truck all-season tires, some of which are designed to go through deep snow, to a car all-season tire that is unknown how it will fare in winter, is not a fair comparison.


I simply used trucks tires in my comments because the poster I was responding to talked about them. I was relating my experience in a similar situation( I actually replaced the exact size and brand/model tire on a Ram truck as he did - just earlier truck model ). There are some very good All Season car tires out there for snow and ice performance just as there are for trucks.

Hankook Optimo H727
Michelin Defender
Goodyear Assurance Comfort Tread
Cooper CS4

Just a few that pop into my head that are very good in the snow( for most people anyway )and they are passenger car class all season tires.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: durallymax
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
How do snow tires work with front wheel drive? Would look a bit strange to have big meaty treads on the front wheels only.

With all season tires if I break traction in my rear wheel drive I just let off the gas and it comes back in line. Is it a different story in front wheel drive? I really don't have any experience with front wheel drive.


Have you looked at new snow tires in the past few years? They are not big and meaty anymore. Most snow tires now are geared towards ice traction. They look close to a summer performance directional tire but with a more horizontal V, open shoulder, ridiculous amounts of siping and compounds that remain very tacky in cold weather. Everything else aside the key things that make a good ice tire is a good compound and siping, big meaty blocks are for digging a hole, something you dont want to do in the snow because you'll wind up stuck, todays snow tires pack the snow down and get traction on the icy packed snow.

heres an example of a modern snow/ice tire. Many from the other competitors are similar in the fact that only a trained eye can notice when walking past the car.

http://www.michelinman.com/tire-selector/category/winter/x-ice-xi3/tire-details
Ah, that is much better. Snow tires back in the 70s were worse than regular tires on ice. Then there are chains which I understand are still used in the mountains.

 

[Rand]

everyone who has good modern snowtires loves them. Most are repeat buyers.

Everyone who is a "doesnt need them person" seem to be the ones who have never had a good snowtire.

enough said.

obviously this is climate dependent. if you live in miami I agree you dont need them.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Rand
everyone who has good modern snowtires loves them. Most are repeat buyers.

Everyone who is a "doesnt need them person" seem to be the ones who have never had a good snowtire.

enough said.

obviously this is climate dependent. if you live in miami I agree you dont need them.


Or maybe we really don't need them even in climates where we get a lot of snow. THAT is enough said.

 

[volk06]

I've never owned a pair of dedicated winter tires on any of my cars. A good all-season has always been ok for me. If its that bad out, I'll take the 4x4 truck.

 

[Smokescreen]

You can drive in winter, terrible conditions with an "all season" tire and likely have no problem. I have done it. Like others have said you can have good drivers, bad drivers, drivers with good tread, others with bald tread.

What it really boils down to is if you are looking for the "extra" margin when driving in winter conditions:

Winter Tires provide a better, safer, more stable handling driving experience than "all season" can when compared side by side. Its been proven over and over gain. If you are willing to pay the premium for this extra margin, then you have that option. I have been in enough situations to feel that for me winter tires are worth it. Others may not.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Or maybe we really don't need them even in climates where we get a lot of snow. THAT is enough said.


I'm curious, do you live and drive in a mostly city or country environment?

It's not like the vast majority of NH is as densely populated as NYC, so your conditions to drive in are probably better than another city, say Denver, or Chicago, when there's an equal amount of snow on the road in all three areas of the country.

Regardless if you feel like you don't need them on your car, when you drive, I would still feel safer on the road when I drive, if everyone had them on their cars.

The bulk of people driving on the roads, in metropolitan areas, are questionable in their driving ability. Throw in bad driving conditions, and you have a free for all. Having everyone driving around on good winter tires makes it safer for everyone.

My having winter tires on all three of the vehicles in our household doesn't make us better drivers in bad conditions. It just gives us a fighting chance of not getting involved in a bad situation on the road caused by someone else.

BC.