Thinking of switching to LED stop lights, turn,etc

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Originally Posted By: Tosh
MidnightG35X: Although your conversion is quite a technical accomplishment, you didn't actually make full use of the main advantage that LEDs have: instant turn on relative to incandescent. Perhaps you should have them all come on initially and then sequentially turn off. This way, the turn signal has more eye-catching impact as an indicator.


Tosh, I don't really believe a turn signal has any real advantage using the "instant on" of LED's. A brake light, yes, by all means. But a turn signal is not nearly as critical as a brake light. And technically, they do have instant turn on, it is just not the full 27 LED's that are on right away. Around here, a lot of semi's and ambulances use a similar sort of turn signal and it seems to convey the point perfectly.

I respect your suggestion, but that is not the sequence that really agrees with my vision :). To each their own I guess. I think as far as eye-catching goes, they do that job quite well as is. I've had plenty of people ask about them already.
 
Originally Posted By: FrozenPilot
There are LEDs right now that are bright enough, but are aimed in the wrong direction.

This is clearly a YMMV thing, depending upon both the module selected AND the shape and mounting angle of the "bulb" in your car. As I see it, there are several characteristics of a LED module you have to match to the needs of your car. Just off the top of my head, I can think of these:

1) The ideal beam direction of a LED module, is pointing straight at the car lens (i.e. pointing right where you want the light). With some car bulb housings, this is the natural way for the "bulb" (led module) to mount. However, if you have a car housing that has a side-mount for the bulb, you will have to take this into account with which LED module you select. For example, there are LED modules with a right-angle mounting (just for this situation), and there are also modules that come in two parts (the plug in, and a 2nd board that you can mount at odd angles). And yet another option (which I did in my wife's car, for her upper brake light which uses a side-mount light) is to just get a very wide angle LED module, and let the natural car reflector (built into the housing) point the light in the correct direction. But unless you take into account the direction you are pointing the light (and that will very with car light housing), you are correct that you will be disappointed.

2) The ideal beam width, is just big enough to fully fill the car lens (and this will vary with where the module is mounted, and the size/shape of your car lens). Going "too wide" isn't a major problem, as it will just waste some potential light (although any reflector in the car housing might recover some of that "wasted" light, and send it out the car lens). However, it clearly is a problem if you go too narrow (which is a very common problem with some of the cheaper led modules), as a too narrow led module will give the "pin hole look" people complain about with LEDs! So if in doubt, it's better to go too wide, than to go too narrow.

3) The ideal color of a led module, is to match the car's lens color. The reason for this, is that turning white light into colored light (which is what happens with a colored car lens, and a normal incandescent bulb) wastes a lot of light in the conversion. But if you match the color of the led module to the reflector, you get virtually all the light going through. Result is that you get effectively better light. OTOH if you have a clear lens, you might want to pay attention to which "color" of white LED you get, so that the color matches other bulbs near it. For example, I went with "warm white" (3300K) LEDs for the white running lights next to my headlights, primarily so that the color closely matched the color of my actual headlights.

4) The ideal brightness of LED modules is bright enough to be seen at least as easily as the stock bulbs. i.e. check the "lumens" of the LED module (comparing them with the lumens of a stock incandescent bulb), and make sure they are at least respectable (and many of the cheaper led modules fall down in this respect). However, keep in mind that colored modules (behind colored car lenses) will be brighter than the lumens indicate, because you will lose less of the light (then a stock bulb would) to the color conversion. Also, properly matching the beam angle and direction can also recover some light that would be "wasted" with a stock bulb. So you can go with fewer lumens than a stock bulb, and still have the result be very bright, if you get everything else right. Still, when in doubt, getting the higher lumen (which is often also the more costly) led module is usually a good investment.

The point is, led modules have a lot more to consider than stock incandescent car bulbs do. So you really have to pay attention to what you are getting, and how that led module would be used in your particular car. However, if you do it correctly, the results can be very satisfying. However, if you don't take these issues into consideration when selecting your led modules, there is a good chance that you will be disappointed with the results.
 
I had bought the no-name LED 194 about two years ago and put one in my cavaliers plate light. It didn't light up very bright at all, and was towards blue rather the Super White it said on the package. It was passable for me, but with my luck I'd see red and blue lights in the rearview mirror. So I bought GE Nighthawk 194s in replacement. They light up better.
 
Too bad I found this thread to late, I had to do the mismatch and other usual mistakes to learn.
Originally Posted By: DracoFelis
... And don't forget that "flashing bulbs" (turn signals, etc) often won't work properly with LED modules UNLESS you either add a loading resister OR swap out your stock flasher unit with an "electronic flasher" (I went with the flasher swap, as you lose the power saving advantage of LEDs if you go with the resister approach). ...

DracoFelis, I converted both cars to LEDs and did some research to find this flasher unit with no success at all, so I had to use the load resistors.

I still have to do the front turn signals on my wife's car so I may not be too late for the Civic: Could you tell me which electronic flasher you used and where is the flasher unit on the Civic?
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Originally Posted By: DracoFelis
... The reason for this, is that converting white light to colored (red, amber, etc) light wastes a lot of potential light. While that wasted light is unavoidable with incandescent bulbs (because "white" is the natural color of incandescents), LEDs can easily produce colored light from the get-go. So by having your LED modules produce light in the proper color, you effectively get a much "brighter light" than you would otherwise have, because you have avoided the light loss intrinsic in converting white light into colored light. ...

Once again, it would have been nice to know this fact as I tried a lot of LEDs without the expecting results on my Rogue.

By testing, I learned which light assemblies need wide angle output LEDs (to use the reflector better) and those which don't, but I still find my rear/brake lights not strong enough.

Thanks a lot for the information DracoFelis
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, I will order red LEDs to see if I can get better results.
 
BTW, I have another question:

Since I changed the brake lights to LEDs, I have the following on both cars:
- Headlights off, when I brake the radio display is dimmed (dimmed so much that you cannot see the clock anymore).

- Headlights on, the radio is is NOT dimmed when I brake.

For sure, I could run with the lights on all the time, but we have DRL here in Canada.
Does someone know how to resolve the problem?

Thanks in advance.
 
Draco, how did you determine that you got a slight increase in fuel economy just by changing to LED? That sounds doubtful at best to me.

Midnight, what makes you think turn signals are not nearly as critical as brake lights? Ask any cop and he will tell you the 2 biggest reasons for rear end collisions are 1)following too close and 2)not seeing the turn signal. For that reason, I always buy cars/trucks that have a bright, yellow turn signals, which are much easier to see than red ones.
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Draco, how did you determine that you got a slight increase in fuel economy just by changing to LED? That sounds doubtful at best to me.

Midnight, what makes you think turn signals are not nearly as critical as brake lights? Ask any cop and he will tell you the 2 biggest reasons for rear end collisions are 1)following too close and 2)not seeing the turn signal. For that reason, I always buy cars/trucks that have a bright, yellow turn signals, which are much easier to see than red ones.


Wow, bringing back an old thread :) I still say brake lights are more important than turn signals, but I'm NOT saying turn signals are not important. If I had to make the weird choice of no brake lights or no turn signals, I'd take no turn signals anyday. As for color of the lights, I wouldn't purchase a car based off the color of the turn signals personally. My car came with red turn signals initially, and I kept them red when I converted mine.
 
I converted my third brake light to LED, and it lights up significantly faster than the incandescent bulbs do. That gives the people behind me more warning that they need to step on their brakes as well.

I set up my video camera and recorded the brake lights coming on. At 30 frames per second, there was a 7 frame difference between when the LED's came on and when the incandescent bulbs came on. At highway speed, that adds up to a somewhat significant amount of distance.
 
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: DracoFelis
... And don't forget that "flashing bulbs" (turn signals, etc) often won't work properly with LED modules UNLESS you either add a loading resister OR swap out your stock flasher unit with an "electronic flasher" (I went with the flasher swap, as you lose the power saving advantage of LEDs if you go with the resister approach). ...

DracoFelis, I converted both cars to LEDs and did some research to find this flasher unit with no success at all, so I had to use the load resistors.

I still have to do the front turn signals on my wife's car so I may not be too late for the Civic: Could you tell me which electronic flasher you used and where is the flasher unit on the Civic?

For the Civic (and my CRX) I used the "Japanese" (model: CF13JL-02) flasher unit sold by superbrightleds.com (the same place I got most of my LED modules). If memory serves correct, it costs around $13 + shipping (shipping is only $5 per order, if your order is under $100 and you chose the postal service as your shipping method).

But, while that flasher is electrically compatible (at least with my Honda CRX and my wife's Honda Civic, but no promises that it will work on all Civics) it won't physically fit in an unmodified Civic/CRX. The reason for this, is that Honda put a large plastic (built in) clip to hold the flasher in place, and the CF13JL-02 is physically a little too big (only an extra millimeter or two, but that's all it takes) to fit in that clip. So to actually use that flasher, you have to take a dremel tool, and cut away the plastic flasher clip that Honda chose to build into the car. After that clip is cut away, you can plug in the slightly bigger flasher unit in the (3-pronged) flasher socket.

NOTE: In theory this means that the flasher isn't being held in place as strongly. However, in my experience, the 3 pronged socket is more then enough friction force to keep the flasher in place (i.e. the clip, which I cut away, wasn't really needed). And if you are really paranoid, you can always hold the flasher unit in with a zip-tie (I didn't bother with the zip-tie, as the 3-pronged flasher socket seems to be more than enough to hold the flasher unit in place securely, even without the "clip" I removed from the flasher mount).

Oh yeah, the location. The flasher (at least on our CRX and Civic) is located in a plastic clip, next to the fuses, just underneath the steering wheel.
 
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Since I changed the brake lights to LEDs, I have the following on both cars:
- Headlights off, when I brake the radio display is dimmed (dimmed so much that you cannot see the clock anymore)

Ouch! No, I don't have an answer for you, but I can make an educated guess.

My guess is that there is something "funny" with how the lights are wired up through the switch in your brake pedal. For example, some "cruise control" circuits often tap both sides of the brake light switch (on the brake pedal), while still running the rest of the circuit to the brake lights. And while those funny sorts of "power taps" work OK (if not ideal) with incandescent lights, with the low current of LEDs the power can go in an unexpected direction (effectively "shorting out" some other lights/devices running off of that circuit).

If this is what is happening, the "fix" is often as simple as running the secondary circuits off of a relay, instead of running them directly. But without knowing the complete wiring path of everything that goes through your brake light switch (the electric switch that the brake pedal activates to turn on the brake lights), it's hard to know for sure what is going on. You wouldn't happen to have a wiring diagram for the car by any chance?
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Draco, how did you determine that you got a slight increase in fuel economy just by changing to LED? That sounds doubtful at best to me.

I first ran a number of tests to determine that electrical load did have a noticeable effect on my FE. In fact, not only did this effect show up at the pump, I could even sometimes feel the extra drag (and often higher idle) caused by something as simple as turning my lights on.

Once it was established that electrical load effected FE (especially in very small cars, such as I have), it logically followed that lowering that load a significant number of watts (by switching to LEDs), should help FE. And while that effect is still a smaller difference than just not running headlights (when that is legally allowed), it also corresponds to a time period during which my average FE went up (and has stayed up) from where it had been.

So while I can't "prove" that some of the FE boost was caused by the LED conversion, it seems likely because: 1) Electrical theory tells us that we have to "pay for" electricity in the car with additional alternator drag (that's how electrical generators, such as car alternators, work), so lowering electrical usage should lower drag. 2) Others have tested the effect of electrical load on FE, and discovered that totally disconnecting an alternator (and just running electrical on battery power) typically increased FE by 10-20% (due to no longer having the alternator drag on the engine). 3) My informal testing (in my car) seems to confirm that this is in fact the case. 4) Converting to LEDs can save a few amps of electricity, which under some driving conditions is a significant percentage of the total electricity of the car. 5) Since alternators are generally proportional in their drag with electricity used, it stands to reason that saving x% of electrical power will give you approximately x% of the total benefit you could get if you disconnected your alternator completely. 6) And the informal observation that I did in fact get the (small but) expected increase in FE (from the electrical drag reduction, due to the lower power of LEDs) after doing the LED upgrade.

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Midnight, what makes you think turn signals are not nearly as critical as brake lights?

Both are important.

However, LEDs light a fraction (around 1/8th) of a second faster than incandescent bulbs do. And while that time difference makes virtually no difference on turn signals (as you generally turn on the signals at least a few seconds before you are going to make the turn), it can make a big difference with brake lights (especially in a panic stop).

That's because at highway speeds that small time difference (between the time it takes a LED module to light, and the slower time for the incandescent brake lights) actually represents several feet of "reaction time" for the driver in the car behind you. And so the faster on of LED "brake lights" can actually make the difference between a car behind you having a "near miss" and actually running into your rear bumper.
 
The problem with that is the fact that your alternator is always providing some level of "free" power, if you will. Exceeding that, still, was calculated somewhere else for my Yaris as using an extra 0.5-1hp (and that's with the stock tunes cranked). Big deal. It comes down to the same debate as A/C v.s. windows down.
 
Originally Posted By: DracoFelis

For the Civic (and my CRX) I used the "Japanese" (model: CF13JL-02) flasher unit sold by superbrightleds.com (the same place I got most of my LED modules). If memory serves correct, it costs around $13 + shipping (shipping is only $5 per order, if your order is under $100 and you chose the postal service as your shipping method).

...

Oh yeah, the location. The flasher (at least on our CRX and Civic) is located in a plastic clip, next to the fuses, just underneath the steering wheel.

Thanks for the information.
I have just found it on the wiring diagram, just need to have the opportunity to look for it in the car (not fun to do that at night).

May be it will help me to find it also on the Rogue (never found it on diagram or on the car).
 
Originally Posted By: DracoFelis
Ouch! No, I don't have an answer for you, but I can make an educated guess.

My guess is that there is something "funny" with how the lights are wired up through the switch in your brake pedal. For example, some "cruise control" circuits often tap both sides of the brake light switch (on the brake pedal), while still running the rest of the circuit to the brake lights. And while those funny sorts of "power taps" work OK (if not ideal) with incandescent lights, with the low current of LEDs the power can go in an unexpected direction (effectively "shorting out" some other lights/devices running off of that circuit).


Yes, the weird thing is it depends if the lights are on or not, not really depending of the brake system by itself, even if it plays a role... and the affected circuit is the radio.

Between the two posts, I did a little experiment on my Rogue which is now totally LEDs except the headlights:
I did not have the problem until I finished the project and put LEDs on the front turn signals (Important: they are used also as side markers when the lights are turned on). So I replace one turn signal with halogen and the problem disappeared. Conclusion: "Something" looks at the whole electric consumption and when it reaches a certain low level, "it" doesn't like it and short circuit the radio light (I have to check if that affect only the radio or the whole interior lighting... but everything is already in LEDs so I don't know if I will see something).

Originally Posted By: DracoFelis
If this is what is happening, the "fix" is often as simple as running the secondary circuits off of a relay, instead of running them directly.

I am not sure to understand how to achieve that, could you detail it a little bit more?

I did a bad experiment on the Civic: I put load resistors on the brake light wiring to simulate halogen bulbs. It works but the current is way stronger than for the turn signals so the resistors heated so much that it burnt the interior lining of the cargo area and started intoxicate my wife and kids: did not like it at all, neither my wife.
SuperBrightLeds sent me by mistake a 6 ohms 50 watts load resistor instead of the usual 25-25. My calculation tells me that this one could hold a current 3 times higher, so I may put it on the front side marker wiring on the Rogue to see if it solve the problem but I have yet to find a way to dissipate the heat and not burnt anything in the engine department. Do you think it is a good way to "divert" the short circuit?

Originally Posted By: DracoFelis
But without knowing the complete wiring path of everything that goes through your brake light switch (the electric switch that the brake pedal activates to turn on the brake lights), it's hard to know for sure what is going on. You wouldn't happen to have a wiring diagram for the car by any chance?

I am still debating to know if I will buy the service manual but I luckily found the wiring diagram for exterior lighting of the Civic.
Do you want me to PM it to you or I can post it here?

BTW, thanks for your help.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Equalizers are needed for LED retrofits:

I followed that link, only to discover that what you call an "Equalizer" looks like little more than a load resister in a fancier package.

And fancy package or no, there are MANY CASES when you do NOT need extra load to be added to make LED retrofits work. In fact, using such a device when it isn't needed is actually counter-productive (i.e. "worse then useless"). Adding extra load WASTES POWER, and this can lower your fuel economy some. Adding extra load also generates extra heat, and this can also work against you.

And yet many (most?) cars are happy to accommodate the lower load of LED modules, without such measures. And even with turn signal lights (one of the more problem areas for LEDs), many (most?) cars will be happy (and have proper flash rate) if/when you swap out the stock flasher unit for a flasher rated for use with LED modules.

In our case, we use LEDs in multiple cars (and one truck), and none of them use either load resisters nor "equalizers", yet they all properly produce the light that is required of them!

i.e. The only real time you benefit from an "equalizer" (or just a "load resister", which is essentially the same thing) is if/when you have a car electrical system that insists (for proper operation) on the normal resistance/load of the stock (incandescent) bulb. There are such cars on the road, but they are in the minority. At all other times such devices are not only not needed (for a proper LED retrofit), but are actually counter-productive!
 
Originally Posted By: DracoFelis
i.e. The only real time you benefit from an "equalizer" (or just a "load resister", which is essentially the same thing) is if/when you have a car electrical system that insists (for proper operation) on the normal resistance/load of the stock (incandescent) bulb. There are such cars on the road, but they are in the minority. At all other times such devices are not only not needed (for a proper LED retrofit), but are actually counter-productive!


And it seems to be the case for the 2006 Civic.
As for the Rogue, I received the red LEDs last friday, put them in the car, what a difference. It is like night and day.
So I am returning all the expensive white ones (shipping and restocking fee don't really work for the cheap ones), and will order some more red ones.

BTW, the radio light problem disappeared in the Rogue. Since I have to move the little steel wires on the LEDs to fit the housing, I may have created some sort of shortcircuit when I installed them (because I did not have this problem with the previous LEDs).

Anyway, everything is back to normal, the Rogue works fine and the Civic went back to stock lights as we traded in it.
For the new car, I will just change the brake lights (and HID lights as low beams, cannot live without them now) as it is a 4 years lease.
 
Originally Posted By: Pesca
As for the Rogue, I received the red LEDs last friday, put them in the car, what a difference. It is like night and day.
So I am returning all the expensive white ones (shipping and restocking fee don't really work for the cheap ones), and will order some more red ones.

Glad to hear that the red LED modules are working for you.

However, I'm not really surprise that the effect is so noticeable. Because while the loss of light/brightness for "filtering" white light into colored light occurs with all colors of light (which is why you should also match the car LENs color for amber and green lights), the loss of useful light (when you turn white light into colored light) is especially strong with the color red (i.e. the color red loses more useful light than some other colors do).

In fact, while it varies with the exact design (and purity) of the "filter" (car lens), it's not uncommon to lose 2/3 (or more) of your usable light, when you turn white light into red light. And if you are losing 2/3 of your light, it follows that simply avoiding that loss (which is what you do by generating the light in the proper color to begin with) would still give you THREE TIMES the usable light you were previously getting. And it shouldn't come as much of a surprise that getting 3+ times the usable light, would be a very noticeable difference.
 
My car haz oem leds tailights in a honeycomb matrix. Pretty fat. Brake lights are incandecent. I'd switch over if I knew of a good 360 degree unit. I also have drls that are almost driving lights. If I converted to a white led, could I select just a forward firing unit?


btw- wire your alt to the brake light switch for free electricity. Make the switch available off for night conditions.
 
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