The Bottom Line On Oil

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As for the future of lube oil. What I have heard is that Group II and III's will become II+ and III+ and the Group IV and V will be gradually disappearing from the market.

What is this I hear about the government mandating huge reductions in ZDDP?

Just rumors overheard at the oil dealer.
 
In Europe you have a three tiered oil system:


The bottom tier are GP II petroleum oils - ACEA A1/B1. This corresponds roughly to API, "SL".

The middle tier are GP III and PAO/petroleum blends - ACEA A2/B2. This roughly corresponds to the GM 4718 spec for the LS-1 engine, or the new Honda and Ford 5w-20 specs.

The top tier are all PAO and/or GP III and/or Ester based oils - ACEA A3/B3/B4, or A5/B5, depending on HT/HS viscosity. There is no API gas engine equivalent for this, although CI-4 rated diesel oils will meet the B3 and B4 diesel specs.


Here's the kicker:

If you use a tier #3, PAO/Ester oil, the vehicle manufacturer will allow you to run drain intervals several times as long, as when using a cheap tier #1 petroleum lube. That's the system I'd like to see in North America....
 
I believe syn lubes are the future and I think they clearly have their benefits. The point of this thread was that if you run a $1.00qt dino oil and change it every 3-5k miles, you'll likely get just as long life out of your engine. I'm a big believer in if your engine is going to last, it's going to last. I use and like synthetics and commend Amsoil for promoting extended drains. But for those not using them now, you'll be fine.
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When is the last time you've heard of someone having an engine fail bc of the oil? Exactly.
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BTW, a well made dino like a Schaeffer's, Pennzoil or Chevron will show as good wear as any synthetic for most vehicles. Vehicles like Vettes that run hot or Toyota's that sludge are the best canidates for synthetics.
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[ January 09, 2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
In Europe you have a three tiered oil system:


The middle tier are GP III and PAO/petroleum blends - ACEA A2/B2. This roughly corresponds to the GM 4718 spec for the LS-1 engine, or the new Honda and Ford 5w-20 specs.


Let me help a little in this one.
ALL the GP III and PAO/petroleum blends are at least A3/B3 rated and the good ones carry additional approvals like BMW's and Porsche's (mostly the 10W40's) .
The A2/B2 is carried by GP II oil's the vast majority of which are 15W40.
I can conferm that in Greece, Toyota gives you the choise to keep your 6 year or 110.000 mile warranty by changing the oil every 4500 miles with their 10W40 or every 9000 miles with their 5W40
synthetic.
There is no 10W30 in Europe and people use 10W40 instead which i believe is the biggest seller.
 
quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
In fact, I think the cheapest oil you will be able to buy in 5-10 years will be a GP III basestock, or something like the Schaeffers S7000, PAO/petroleum blend.

I am leaning to agree. It may start in the next 2-4 years and end up there who knows when, but I agree, it's all leaning for the better oils.
 
quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
-*-*
The top tier are all PAO and/or GP III and/or Ester based oils - ACEA A3/B3/B4, or A5/B5, depending on HT/HS viscosity. There is no API gas engine equivalent for this, although CI-4 rated diesel oils will meet the B3 and B4 diesel specs.
-*-*


ALL PAO and or GRP III? Are you certain?
Are you saying that there can not be a Dino Group II to meet these spec's or at least the A3 B3
 
quote:

What is this I keep hearing that everyone is using 0W-30 in Europe????????

That's plain misinformation. I used only 5W-40 and 10W-40 over there.

[ January 10, 2004, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by toyvwbenz:
What is this I keep hearing that everyone is using 0W-30 in Europe????????

The 0W30 and 5W30 synthetics are being used in the last 2-3 years by VW ,Mercedes ,BMW and other manifacturares like Peugeot mainly for super extended oil change intervals up to 20.000 miles
(MB 229.5 or VW and BMW long life oil approvals).

Some of them like Peugeot gives you the choise to use other grades during warranty(Peugeot sells a good number of cars in northern Africa and middle east-Mercedes also
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), some others are more stringent like VW espesially if your cars is equiped with the oil computer monitor system.
So in the bottom line yes ,many of the new cars use these thinner grades in northern europe but the majority i belive is still the 10W40 and 5W40.

edit: the 10W40 and 5W40 are equivalent to your 10W30 and 5W30.The differance is that almost all the 10W40 are blends(BP 5000 10W40 is 100% Group III) and all the 5W40 are synthetics.

[ January 10, 2004, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: yannis ]
 
Well I might as well chime in on this one. While I don't post very much, I have watched this forum for a long time. I posted on the Bob's original board and have been on this one from the beginning.

What I have learned from all of the great posts and UOA's is:

1. There is no longer a need to have a OCI of 3K for dino oil anymore. Patman and Bob have posted many threads discussing this and the 3K OCI was started back in the 60's and no longer applies to the oil made today. In fact, I have a '01 burb that specifies dino oil and has a OCI computer that triggers the OCI based on miles, #starts, temps, etc, and it never goes off until 5-6K. So, when looking at cost savings over synthetics, most people put 12-14K Mi on their car a year. At 5-6K per change thats 3 OC's per year not 4-5.

Most syn users don't really take their oil to its limits. 5-7K maybe it for dino, but a good syn should be able to go 7.5-10K. I think most syns users don't feel comfortable doing it because the 3K OCI is so engrained that 7.5K seems a long time in comparison.

2. With the new SL's and GF4's set to come out soon, the current oils have much better bases and additive packages than the 3K OCI oils of yesteryear. Hence, further support for longer OCI's for dino.

3. Syn has its place and I have used both syn and dino in my cars. I had a 87 Cougar XR7 (302 cu-in) and used penn from my local Jiffy lube with 5-6K OCI's on it and had 155K on it when I traded it in and still did not use any oil.

Since '93 when I got an Explorer, I have used M1 and now have 130K and have gone 5-6K between OC's and it just started using a small amount of oil since I switched to the new M1. Don't know if it is because of the thinner nature of M1 or not.

But, syn's have their place. If you live in the tundra with Patman, then syn's are great and recommended. If you do alot of hard driving or have a toyota sludde machine then the extra protection of syn's are great.

3. However, if you are an average driver and run a good dino or blend and change your oil regularly at 5-7K, with the dino oils made today, I believe that your engine will last longer than the rest of it will.

4. UOA's are great but over used. I think that UOA's are great when going through the process of determining how long one can go between OC's. I have watched a syn oil study at http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
and Patman has actually paid for a few of the UOA's for the study. I believe that in this case it is warranted.

But, if you are going to change your syn oil at 7.5K and then pay $20-25 for a UOA and are trying to see if you could have gone 1-2K more, then you are wasting your money, unless you are just addicted to oil. I admit, I have paid for several before realizing that for the money I was spending on the UOA, I could have bought another round of oil and filter.

In summary, I love this website and have learned a lot. However, with everything in life a little common sense must be applied and both dino and syn have their place and both will work very well for the majority of the drivers.

I am in the process of thinking about switching off of M1 and going back to a good blend or dino due to Wallyworld raising their price on the 5 qt jugs from $17.88 ($3.57/qt) per jug to $22.88 ($4.57/qt) per jug.

Has this happened at other Walmarts?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Kevin in Texas:
But, syn's have their place. If you live in the tundra with Patman

I am in the process of thinking about switching off of M1 and going back to a good blend or dino due to Wallyworld raising their price on the 5 qt jugs from $17.88 ($3.57/qt) per jug to $22.88 ($4.57/qt) per jug.

Has this happened at other Walmarts?


Kevin, well stated! Yes, the Walmarts now charge $22.88 per 5qt jug of M1 around here. Interestingly, Sam's club charges $23.28 for a 6qt case, but they only have 5w-30 and 10w-30, no 15w-50
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. $3.88 sounds like a much better deal.

Patman doesn't live in the tundra, he lives in the *warm* part of Canada!
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quote:

Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin in Texas:


Kevin, well stated! Yes, the Walmarts now charge $22.88 per 5qt jug of M1 around here. Interestingly, Sam's club charges $23.28 for a 6qt case, but they only have 5w-30 and 10w-30, no 15w-50
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. $3.88 sounds like a much better deal.

Patman doesn't live in the tundra, he lives in the *warm* part of Canada!
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Thanks for the tip at Sam's. I will check mine out and see if they carry it.
 
quote:

Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:


Patman doesn't live in the tundra, he lives in the *warm* part of Canada!
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It sure doesn't feel like it today! It was -9F this morning and is only up to 2F as of noon hour. Although this time last Saturday, it was 56F!

Kevin, that post was excellent, you need to come out of lurk mode more often!
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quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
...I consider my labor to do an oil change and clean up the mess, to be worth about $25.00...

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My Hyundai dealer does oil (up to 5 quarts, dino) and filter (genuine Hyundai) changes including the labor and California's used oil reclamation charge for $21.95, total, plus state sales tax. Your labor comes pretty high, TooSlick. IMHO.
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[ January 10, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
 
Ray,

I was doing Amsoil "conversions" for a while at home, using the engine flush for 30 minutes and then doing the oil change. I was charging $24.00 dollars labor, or $6.00 for every 15 minutes, and had more work than I could handle. I finally had to stop because I wasn't getting anything done around the house and my wife kept giving me dirty looks. My coworkers were thrilled to find someone they could trust with their expensive, imported vehicles.

Have you checked the labor rates at dealerships lately? My toyota dealer charges $65.00/hr and the Audi place is $80.00/hr!

Experienced propulsion engineers don't work cheap - just ask Molekule ...
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Tooslick (in more ways than one)
 
WHO SAID THE PAT AND i ARE IN THE MILD PART OF CANADA
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ITS -28 C OR - 18 f HERE THIS MORNING
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Glad to see that my Petro-Can supreme 5w 30 have a min border puping of -35c or -31 f...
 
I agree with buster except for one point synthtic users should follow car makers drain intervals as reccomended.
Im glad to see other sensible members who share the same opinions.
 
Extended drains are the way of the future I imagine and they are more eco friendly, which is a great thing. I don't think however, all driving conditions can be lumped in with extended drains.

My point though was that a dino oil will get you sufficient life out of your engine as long as you maintain it and drain the oil at much shorter intervals then a top tier syn lube boob.
 
Mr. Crane,
Would you be so kind to update your spreadsheet and put it in a new separate post. I will peg it to the top for a while. It is one of the best I have seen on this board. To me it separates the fly stuff from the pepper.

cheers.gif


[ January 12, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
 
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